Does Mescaline cause HPPD?

[Ok-Shock-5135]

Hi guys, this is my first post so apologies if I'm doing something wrong.

Is there anyone here who got HPPD from Mescaline/Peyote and only that?

Logically, any psychedelic can cause HPPD, and Mescaline is a psychedelic. It's a Substituted phenethylamine, just like 2C-B, which can cause HPPD. However, I have yet to find a single case of someone getting it from just mescaline. John Halpern did a study on some Native Americans, some of which had used Peyote hundreds of times, and found no cases:

"We specifically screened the 80 potential participants... in the peyote group for a history of hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (“flashbacks”);... none reported this condition."

Mescaline is not a common drug by any measure, but I would expect to find at least one case. I emailed a Native American church and out of thousands of people who the respondent had guided through Peyote trips, none reported HPPD. The closest things I found were Havelock Ellis's "heightened sensitivity to the more delicate phenomena of light...", which I don't believe is HPPD as his report was very positive about Mescaline, or "Fleeting Afterimages" reported after mescaline by 4 people who were administered it in a study mentioned here. Sartre also reported being followed by crabs for years after using mescaline, but that doesn't sound like HPPD. The other cases of HPPD mentioning Mescaline invariably mentioned use of many other psychedelics, and Mescaline was never the one last used before the onset of HPPD.

If anyone here got HPPD from mescaline or any mescaline-containing plant, then I'd love to hear about it, and if not perhaps we need to look into whether Mescaline could be considered safe - or at least safer.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ok-Shock-5135
added one possible example of mescaline-induced hppd (sartre)

[Fawkinchit]

Most of the members here are non drug users and prefer to avoid drugs altogether, so you may get better reception on reddit forums for what it seems like you're trying to find out. However, on a purely research basis it is something to question if it has no causative effects for HPPD, as it would be somewhat contradictory to what anyone would expect. 

[Ok-Shock-5135]

5 hours ago, Fawkinchit said:

Most of the members here are non drug users and prefer to avoid drugs altogether, so you may get better reception on reddit forums for what it seems like you're trying to find out. However, on a purely research basis it is something to question if it has no causative effects for HPPD, as it would be somewhat contradictory to what anyone would expect. 

True, I know this forum is more for support, but it seems to be the largest group of people with HPPD so a handy resource. I did ask on reddit and... noone had it from Mescaline. Even though Mescaline use is maybe 1-2% as popular as LSD use, there are hundreds of Erowid reports on Mescaline and Mescaline cactus use, none report HPPD afaik.

Considering how common HPPD is from substances like LSD, I think this 'exception(?)' is definitely something that should be looked into further. I don't condone use of Mescaline or any drug though.

(take a shot every time I say Mescaline)

[user4]

I would assume any hallugenic drug causes hppd, until proven otherwise. People have gotten hppd from just marijuana, an extremely mild hallugenic drug, so I assume that a stong hallucinogen like mescaline probably could also cause hppd

[Hall89]

It seems like all hallucinogens and psychedelics can cause it.

"A vast list of psychoactive substances has been identified and linked with the development of this condition, including Magic Mushrooms (psilocybin) [21] and muscimol (Amanita muscaria (L.) Lam.) [22]; San Pedro cactus and Peyote (mescaline) [16,23]; ketamine [24]; dextromethorphan [25]; MDMA and MDA [26]; and cannabis and synthetic cannabinoids [27,28,29,30,31,32,33]. This condition has also been associated with the consumption of Ayahuasca, Datura stramonium L., Salvia divinorum Epling & Játiva, and Tabernanthe iboga (L.) Nutt., which contains ibogaine [17,18]. It is, therefore, clear that HPPD is not strictly associated with psychedelic consumption, but a number of hallucinogen-inducing substances may be correlated with its arising.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870365/"

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Hall89

[Ok-Shock-5135]

13 hours ago, Hall89 said:

It seems like all hallucinogens and psychedelics can cause it.

"A vast list of psychoactive substances has been identified and linked with the development of this condition, including Magic Mushrooms (psilocybin) [21] and muscimol (Amanita muscaria (L.) Lam.) [22]; San Pedro cactus and Peyote (mescaline) [16,23]; ketamine [24]; dextromethorphan [25]; MDMA and MDA [26]; and cannabis and synthetic cannabinoids [27,28,29,30,31,32,33]. This condition has also been associated with the consumption of Ayahuasca, Datura stramonium L., Salvia divinorum Epling & Játiva, and Tabernanthe iboga (L.) Nutt., which contains ibogaine [17,18]. It is, therefore, clear that HPPD is not strictly associated with psychedelic consumption, but a number of hallucinogen-inducing substances may be correlated with its arising.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870365/"

 

 

Firstly, thanks for that paper. It cites two sources for Mescaline-induced HPPD. The first, citation 16, is this paper, which mentions Mescaline HPPD several times.

-One is Havelock Ellis's case, which as I've said before I don't believe is HPPD due to his glowing endorsement of Mescaline.

-Another is a study of members of Peyotism, none of which got HPPD after extensive Peyote use.

-Another is two papers by Dr. Abraham from 1983 and 1984. The 1983 one draws no distinction between Mescaline and LSD use and only has one final number as a result, which is annoying. The other one I cannot access.

-Another is another paper, which itself correlated Mescaline to HPPD a couple of times. This 1960 paper contacted some investigators of psychedelics, and "The fleeting recurrence of the mescaline state after a period of complete recovery was listed by four investigators. One wonders whether this phasic relapse may not be somewhat more frequent with mescaline than with LSD".

This seems to suggest that HPPD is actually more common with Mescaline than with LSD. Another part of the 1960 paper read: "Three interesting delayed reations to mescaline are related by Harley-Mason et al. (7). In each instance these were associated with either excessive fatigue or stress. For eample, one patient two weeks after exposure to 400mg. of mescaline became physically and mentally exhausted. She saw dark, moving objects, and with her eyes closed, dull colored, hypnagogic imagery.".

This sounds like HPPD. This 1958 Harley-Mason paper that reported it is not publicly accessible, so the only information I have about it comes from your citation 16, which mentions this same 1958 paper, saying that it among others was "...excluded for containing fewer than eight cases". Now either those three cases were out of less than eight total, which puts the risk of HPPD from Mescaline around 40% at best. Considering the hundreds of Erowid reports of single-drug Mescaline use, not one of which describes HPPD after use, this figure is just impossible. So what's more likely is that these three cases were out of an un-reported or unknown sample size, making estimating the prevalence of HPPD from Mescaline impossible using this information.

The other source for Mescaline-induced HPPD from your paper is source 23. It reads:

"Lerner, A.G. Flashbacks and Hppd (Hallucinogenic Persisting Perception Disorder): Clinical Aspects and Pharmacological Treatment. In Proceedings of the First World Congress of the World Association on Dual Disorders, Madrid, Spain, 23–26 March 2017"

No matter how hard I look, I can't find this thing. I emailed Mr. Lerner, I'll let you know if he gets back to me.

So, what are the results from this search? Well, there are certainly studies detailing instances of what seem to be Mescaline-induced HPPD. They were written before a clinical definition of HPPD was available, and as such they don't cover everything that you need for an HPPD diagnosis, but they certainly sound like the condition.

The only problem is the study on members of the Native American Church, which was done in more modern times when a definition of HPPD existed and where HPPD was specifically asked about. This study has problems, but less than the ones from the 50s and 60s, and it says that no members of Peyotism report HPPD, something which is backed up by my inquiries of another Native American church last week. These two conclusions appear irreconcilable.

In conclusion to this, I agree with you. It does seem like all Hallucinogens and Psychedelics can cause it. And this is true - Visual Snow is like HPPD but with no identifiable cause at all, some people just wake up with visual snow and tinnitus and mild hallucinations and all the rest of it. If people can get it from nothing at all, then they can get it from LSD. And Mescaline. And air. Nothing is totally without risk of anything.

But because of how scarce the evidence seems to be, and the lack of firsthand accounts, I still maintain that I think there's something about Mescaline that's different to other HPPD-causing drugs, in regard to its ability to, well, cause HPPD. And this needs to be looked into more, because if it turns out that Mescaline causes HPPD much less often, then the word should be spread for people to try Mescaline as their first psychedelic, not LSD. This could reduce HPPD cases.

And as always, sorry for the stupidly long length of this post. I've probably made some big errors and I've definitely made some small ones.

[SomebodySomewhere]

Yes, you can get HPPD from Mescaline. Plenty of people have developed HPPD from using phenethylamines, 2C-B being a classic example.

Edited May 18, 2021 by SomebodySomewhere
I was grumpy, made an obnoxious comment. Sorry.

[Fawkinchit]

On 5/15/2021 at 6:02 AM, Hall89 said:

It seems like all hallucinogens and psychedelics can cause it.

"A vast list of psychoactive substances has been identified and linked with the development of this condition, including Magic Mushrooms (psilocybin) [21] and muscimol (Amanita muscaria (L.) Lam.) [22]; San Pedro cactus and Peyote (mescaline) [16,23]; ketamine [24]; dextromethorphan [25]; MDMA and MDA [26]; and cannabis and synthetic cannabinoids [27,28,29,30,31,32,33]. This condition has also been associated with the consumption of Ayahuasca, Datura stramonium L., Salvia divinorum Epling & Játiva, and Tabernanthe iboga (L.) Nutt., which contains ibogaine [17,18]. It is, therefore, clear that HPPD is not strictly associated with psychedelic consumption, but a number of hallucinogen-inducing substances may be correlated with its arising.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870365/"

 

 

Crazy.

2 hours ago, SomebodySomewhere said:

Yes, you can get HPPD from Mescaline. Plenty of people have developed HPPD from using phenethylamines, 2C-B being a classic example.

Lol, it appears I was quoted in the original post, hopefully I didn't offend. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Fawkinchit

[Jeff_Vernis]

On 5/15/2021 at 4:36 AM, user4 said:

I would assume any hallugenic drug causes hppd, until proven otherwise. People have gotten hppd from just marijuana, an extremely mild hallugenic drug, so I assume that a stong hallucinogen like mescaline probably could also cause hppd

In my world things aren't true unless proven, not otherwise lmao...

[user4]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:21 PM, Jeff_Vernis said:

In my world things aren't true unless proven, not otherwise lmao...

Im basically saying its not worth the risk to take it.

[Honeycat]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:20 PM, Ok-Shock-5135 said:

Hi guys, this is my first post so apologies if I'm doing something wrong.

Is there anyone here who got HPPD from Mescaline/Peyote and only that?

Logically, any psychedelic can cause HPPD, and Mescaline is a psychedelic. It's a Substituted phenethylamine, just like 2C-B, which can cause HPPD. However, I have yet to find a single case of someone getting it from just mescaline. John Halpern did a study on some Native Americans, some of which had used Peyote hundreds of times, and found no cases:

"We specifically screened the 80 potential participants... in the peyote group for a history of hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (“flashbacks”);... none reported this condition."

Mescaline is not a common drug by any measure, but I would expect to find at least one case. I emailed a Native American church and out of thousands of people who the respondent had guided through Peyote trips, none reported HPPD. The closest things I found were Havelock Ellis's "heightened sensitivity to the more delicate phenomena of light...", which I don't believe is HPPD as his report was very positive about Mescaline, or "Fleeting Afterimages" reported after mescaline by 4 people who were administered it in a study mentioned here. Sartre also reported being followed by crabs for years after using mescaline, but that doesn't sound like HPPD. The other cases of HPPD mentioning Mescaline invariably mentioned use of many other psychedelics, and Mescaline was never the one last used before the onset of HPPD.

If anyone here got HPPD from mescaline or any mescaline-containing plant, then I'd love to hear about it, and if not perhaps we need to look into whether Mescaline could be considered safe - or at least safer.

 

4 hours ago, user4 said:

Im basically saying its not worth the risk to take it.

Hi, I had an intense trip on San Pedro/mescaline. Out of this world frightening and trippy. Thought I was dead at the end of it.

Got HPPD from that alone. Bad. Started with me waking suddenly and seeing energy connecting everything in the room. Then I kept getting thrown into my trip every time I tried to sleep. It was like being thrown into a tornado of visual and audio energy and it was TERRIFYING. I'd feel confused and disorientated, unsure if I had ever left the trip in the first place.

Then one night a few nights after the trip I heard a voice telling me something about the universe that shook me to the core.

One morning my perception was as though I was back in the trip.

Another morning I saw an infinity sign and I was given a message about the universe. In the moment i clearly understood. Then I was left confused after. It was something about like... it doesn't matter what you do... maybe everything is pre-determined. And everything is happening at the same time.

I didn't sleep for 3 days straight out of fear.

At night my partner looked like a corpse. My cat's eyes looked bruised. My dog's face looked too long. People's pet photos on Facebook looked so eerie.

I kept expecting reality to shatter around me.

I had a panic attack over a SpongeBob episode. 

When all the really terrifying stuff passed I was left with intense closed-eye visuals, usually frightening. Some like clear movies. Like watching a dream conscious. Others darkened pictures of scary imagery. It was like the pathway between sleep and wakefulness was broken.

I got random photographic memory, but not that I could control.

Random lazer lights in the room. Wavy air and patterns. Mild visual snow in certain lighting. Floaters. 

I could summon the mist I saw on mescaline and sometimes I got peripheral hallucinations. 

Unfortunately I didn't stop psychedelics after that. I was too intrigued and had too much existential crisis. Now my HPPD is much worse from mushrooms as well when my mescaline induced HPPD was beginning to heal. Now I live in Hell, am frightened 24/7 and wish I didn't exist.

 

[Spartan]

this video should answer your question

cheers 

 

(132) Hallucinogen persistent perception disorder - YouTube

[Ok-Shock-5135]

18 hours ago, Honeycat said:

 

Hi, I had an intense trip on San Pedro/mescaline. Out of this world frightening and trippy. Thought I was dead at the end of it.

Got HPPD from that alone. Bad. Started with me waking suddenly and seeing energy connecting everything in the room. Then I kept getting thrown into my trip every time I tried to sleep. It was like being thrown into a tornado of visual and audio energy and it was TERRIFYING. I'd feel confused and disorientated, unsure if I had ever left the trip in the first place.

Then one night a few nights after the trip I heard a voice telling me something about the universe that shook me to the core.

One morning my perception was as though I was back in the trip.

Another morning I saw an infinity sign and I was given a message about the universe. In the moment i clearly understood. Then I was left confused after. It was something about like... it doesn't matter what you do... maybe everything is pre-determined. And everything is happening at the same time.

I didn't sleep for 3 days straight out of fear.

At night my partner looked like a corpse. My cat's eyes looked bruised. My dog's face looked too long. People's pet photos on Facebook looked so eerie.

I kept expecting reality to shatter around me.

I had a panic attack over a SpongeBob episode. 

When all the really terrifying stuff passed I was left with intense closed-eye visuals, usually frightening. Some like clear movies. Like watching a dream conscious. Others darkened pictures of scary imagery. It was like the pathway between sleep and wakefulness was broken.

I got random photographic memory, but not that I could control.

Random lazer lights in the room. Wavy air and patterns. Mild visual snow in certain lighting. Floaters. 

I could summon the mist I saw on mescaline and sometimes I got peripheral hallucinations. 

Unfortunately I didn't stop psychedelics after that. I was too intrigued and had too much existential crisis. Now my HPPD is much worse from mushrooms as well when my mescaline induced HPPD was beginning to heal. Now I live in Hell, am frightened 24/7 and wish I didn't exist.

 

Well, I suppose the book's closed on this then. Did you use any psychedelics prior to the San Pedro?

[Fawkinchit]

I would like to bump this thread, has anyone else gotten hppd from mescaline? This is a very interesting topic, if more people could answer please.