Question on responsible use of Clonazepam

[Sam93]

Hey guys!

Well I managed to get a Klono prescription after visiting a private neuro and I know I posted before that it didnt work, but after a few more tries it is working brilliantly, basically hppd free, both visuals and dpdr after a 2mg dose, the drowsiness isn't great but that's a side effect I can live with.

I know Klono should be used as a magic bullet for those situations you need some relief, or just used sparingly one day a week as a hppd free day, but its so hard not to say F it and take them every day and just be done with this nonsense for a while. But at the same time, I really don't want to mess this magic bullet up.

Does anyone have any advice on how to control my use of Benzos? I don't want an addiction under my belt as well as the horror of hppd but it really does give me my life back.

Thanks and hope you all have a good day.

[Syntheso]

Simply said.. if you take it daily, you will rapidly build a tolerance.. it won't touch your symptoms and you'll keep upping your dose.. you know that story.

It is unlikely that you will have another 'HPPD-free' day unless you wait for it all to get out of your system, even if you only take it once a week, it still won't be that noticeable. Just be content with some alleviation. And just keep it at once a week, if not longer, I suggest. And even if you get to your seven days without, think if you really need it. Save it till you do. And keep the doses as small as possible, my advice to you. Sorry to be boring, but that's probably the best advice. I had my 'HPPD-free' moment.. was only on the first benzo dose I tried. I have kept it at least a week between use since then (well, not initially, I got excited, which proved to be not so magic bullet-y) and it doesn't come any where near that. 

Think long term; ie. smaller doses, more spread out.

 

Edit: so to answer your question, more directly on controlling benzo use.. just strong determination of the mind. Be really strict with yourself. And also try and use that to feel good anyway, i.e without benzos. Try not to place too much emphasis of the benzo magic bullet thing. It's just one thing of a much bigger healing process.

PS: I say this as a lover of benzo recreational use and a large stash of all sorts of benzos at my disposal. I still maintain the above with strict adherence (i.e not just saying it to be an ass )

[Sam93]

Simply said.. if you take it daily, you will rapidly build a tolerance.. it won't touch your symptoms and you'll keep upping your dose.. you know that story.

It is unlikely that you will have another 'HPPD-free' day unless you wait for it all to get out of your system, even if you only take it once a week, it still won't be that noticeable. Just be content with some alleviation. And just keep it at once a week, if not longer, I suggest. And even if you get to your seven days without, think if you really need it. Save it till you do. And keep the doses as small as possible, my advice to you. Sorry to be boring, but that's probably the best advice. I had my 'HPPD-free' moment.. was only on the first benzo dose I tried. I have kept it at least a week between use since then (well, not initially, I got excited, which proved to be not so magic bullet-y) and it doesn't come any where near that. 

Think long term; ie. smaller doses, more spread out.

 

Edit: so to answer your question, more directly on controlling benzo use.. just strong determination of the mind. Be really strict with yourself. And also try and use that to feel good anyway, i.e without benzos. Try not to place too much emphasis of the benzo magic bullet thing. It's just one thing of a much bigger healing process.

PS: I say this as a lover of benzo recreational use and a large stash of all sorts of benzos at my disposal. I still maintain the above with strict adherence (i.e not just saying it to be an ass )

 

Hi Syntheso, thanks for the reply.

 

I do know that will power is the main thing I need to put into practice so I don't get into a vicious pattern of benzo abuse, but it's just the psychological ideology that if I do something as mundane as swallowing a pill, I have great relief for an entire day. It's so easy.

 

On the up side though, a day where I do take Klono is a day to look forward to, and I think I make the most of those days a lot more because you appreciate them that much more. The main thing for me is that my DP/DR is quite bad and Klono gives me some emotion back. 

 

Another question that comes to mind is, say if I take 2mg of Klono, how long do I have to wait before my tolerance dies down to the point where it'd have the same effect as the first time I took it? I hope that makes sense.

Basically, if I took 2MG of Klono every sunday, would tolerance likely to be an issue at all or would the relief be quite consistent dosing in that manner?

 

Thank you.

[Syntheso]

Hi Syntheso, thanks for the reply.

 

I do know that will power is the main thing I need to put into practice so I don't get into a vicious pattern of benzo abuse, but it's just the psychological ideology that if I do something as mundane as swallowing a pill, I have great relief for an entire day. It's so easy.

 

On the up side though, a day where I do take Klono is a day to look forward to, and I think I make the most of those days a lot more because you appreciate them that much more. The main thing for me is that my DP/DR is quite bad and Klono gives me some emotion back. 

 

Another question that comes to mind is, say if I take 2mg of Klono, how long do I have to wait before my tolerance dies down to the point where it'd have the same effect as the first time I took it? I hope that makes sense.

Basically, if I took 2MG of Klono every sunday, would tolerance likely to be an issue at all or would the relief be quite consistent dosing in that manner?

 

Thank you.

 

 

On the up side though, a day where I do take Klono is a day to look forward to, and I think I make the most of those days a lot more because you appreciate them that much more. The main thing for me is that my DP/DR is quite bad and Klono gives me some emotion back. 

 

 

Whilst that is a more positive way to think about it (than 'I want to be done with this HPPD nonsense'), I think it's not particularly helpful. To reiterate my comments above.. try not to psychologically emphasise a dichotomy between Klonopin days and 'the other days'. Not just because that's more likely to lead to abuse, but because you should try and look forward to every day (be positive), or throw yourself into it despite how shit you feel, to aid the healing process. In other words, imagine you had no drugs at your disposal, only the power of your mind.. approach each and every day like that. It's taken me a while to fight the feelings of brain fog and chronic lethargy, but you need to condition yourself not to give in. I certainly was doing that for ages. Now when I feel it coming on, I go and do some yoga, exercise, meditation, breathing exercises or whatever. It clears my mind for a while. Then it can come back later, go do it again, etc. Rather than what I used to do - 'I can't do anything but sleep, and I'm not sure how care I am if I wake up'..

 

Another question that comes to mind is, say if I take 2mg of Klono, how long do I have to wait before my tolerance dies down to the point where it'd have the same effect as the first time I took it? I hope that makes sense.

 

http://www.bcnc.org.uk/equivalence.html

You can work it out from the half-life. If you want to be sure, let's take the upper end; 50 hours. So max 50 hours, half is gone, quarter in 100 hours, eighth 200 hours.. etc.

 

Basically, if I took 2MG of Klono every sunday, would tolerance likely to be an issue at all or would the relief be quite consistent dosing in that manner?

You'd had some tolerance, yeah, but if you kept it to that I can't see there being problematic use. Taking a dose once a week wouldn't make you 'HPPD-free' for a day. Doesn't for me anyway. If I compare my 'HPPD-free' (no visuals, better cognition, no brain fog, lethargy) benzo experience to a weekly dose, usually Lorazepam, it is at about 50% effective as that experience.

Whilst browsing book stores I have noticed there are quite a few books out discrediting the psychiatry community for the popular prescription of such drugs, arguing they are toxic. I have not read into that, but I guess these things might stay in our systems for longer than we think. Anyway, not to scare you, just be careful.

[onedayillsailagain]

Yeah it's basically a matter of being strict, like Syntheso said. I have no experience with Clonazepam, but I used to use Phenibut (basically an OTC benzo) for my "day off". Usually I'd limit this to every Sunday. Sometimes I did 2 days in a row or a higher dose, but I quickly learned that that just made things worse and tolerance would build, accompanied by a "hangover". The first time was the best, after that it never really did the trick as good.

Eventually I just threw the stuff out though, cause my shrink was bitching about it and actually proposed that Phenibut was causing my HPPD. Post-Freudian retards.. sigh. Nowadays I just keep an Oxazepam in my wallet might I ever find I need it, but I haven't felt the need for it despite the seeming temptation. I guess it's just knowing that I have one there in case I would go totally ape-shit, is reassuring by itself.

So I'd suggest you kind of keep it as a last resort really, or limit use as much as possible.
Are you looking into other (more sustainable) treatment options in the meantime?

Cheers.

[Sam93]

Yeah it's basically a matter of being strict, like Syntheso said. I have no experience with Clonazepam, but I used to use Phenibut (basically an OTC benzo) for my "day off". Usually I'd limit this to every Sunday. Sometimes I did 2 days in a row or a higher dose, but I quickly learned that that just made things worse and tolerance would build, accompanied by a "hangover". The first time was the best, after that it never really did the trick as good.

Eventually I just threw the stuff out though, cause my shrink was bitching about it and actually proposed that Phenibut was causing my HPPD. Post-Freudian retards.. sigh. Nowadays I just keep an Oxazepam in my wallet might I ever find I need it, but I haven't felt the need for it despite the seeming temptation. I guess it's just knowing that I have one there in case I would go totally ape-shit, is reassuring by itself.

So I'd suggest you kind of keep it as a last resort really, or limit use as much as possible.

Are you looking into other (more sustainable) treatment options in the meantime?

Cheers.

 

Hi there, thanks for your reply.

 

I like your idea of having one in your wallet, I have a bottle of 100 Klono currently and have been taking them on the days I've been struggling to cope, which is usually sundays where I have absolutely nothing to do all day, if I'm not with my girlfriend that is.

 

As far as more sustainable treatments go, I've just been looking into private neuros/specialists in the UK. I'd like to try Sinemet or Keppra but I think it's going to be a big challenge attempting to get those prescribed in the UK. The neuro that prescribed me Klono flat out refused to even give me a trial run on Keppra or Sinemet. 

 

EDIT: I was looking into Phenibut myself, how does it compare to benzos as far as relief from HPPD goes? I would've thought that it would be more beneficial as benzos are typically GABA-a agonists while Phenibut (as far as I'm aware) is a GABA-b agonist, and in HPPD it seems to be GABA-b dis inhibition that is the problem, although I could be completely wrong on that one.

 

Thanks.

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

Whilst you'll do well to ever get Sinemet prescribed (and I'm not even sure that's a sustainable treatment), Keppra is not as difficult to get hold of here in the UK. My GP prescribed it to me, and my previous one before my current GP offered to prescribe it to me but at the time I wanted to be med free. I know others here in the UK have been prescribed it as well. But you can't just say, "can I try Keppra?' You have present information to your doctor in a way so that they can trust that you know what you're talking about.

[Sam93]

Whilst you'll do well to ever get Sinemet prescribed (and I'm not even sure that's a sustainable treatment), Keppra is not as difficult to get hold of here in the UK. My GP prescribed it to me, and my previous one before my current GP offered to prescribe it to me but at the time I wanted to be med free. I know others here in the UK have been prescribed it as well. But you can't just say, "can I try Keppra?' You have present information to your doctor in a way so that they can trust that you know what you're talking about.

 

Ah I see, I'll have to inquire about that and see if my GP would be willing to give it a go. Can I ask if Keppra worked for you at all?

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

I didn't ask straight away. I built up a relationship with my GP first.

 

Keppra did not work for me.

[onedayillsailagain]

Hmm it's hard to compare. Phenibut helped me in social settings and to relax when alone, whereas benzo's help me to chill out when alone but they don't help in social settings for me. If anything I'd say somewhere in between Diazepam or Oxazepam and Alcohol. The only other benzo I've tried was Prazepam, and I didn't like it at all, and it's nothing like Phenibut.

What helps to get a prescription:

1. Do your research and print out relevant papers (have a look over at the Downloads section)
2. If you're having issues with memory/anxiety, write down sound arguments (for example: Keppra is essentially harmless) and bring your notes with you
3. Get an official diagnosis
4. Refuse to take "no" for an answer
5. Learn how to recognize incompetence in a doctor, and see a different doctor until you find one who is both competent and willing to help

That's what helped me at least.
AFAIK Keppra is more sustainable and safer than Sinemet, which is why I preferred it over Sinemet (and the doctors will too).

I wouldn't know if HPPD is GABA-B receptor specific (haven't read anything that would indicate that). Phenibut helped with anxiety and DP/DR, but it didn't do much for visuals. Actually sometimes it made them worse, but the benefits outweighed that. I prefer Kava Kava over Phenibut though (less sedation and more clarity, also basically harmless stuff as opposed to Phenibut), but it's contraindicated with Keppra so I didn't buy more when I ran out.

Anyway just be persistent and patient (yeah the latter can be tricky, I know), and you'll get what you need.

[Sam93]

Hmm it's hard to compare. Phenibut helped me in social settings and to relax when alone, whereas benzo's help me to chill out when alone but they don't help in social settings for me. If anything I'd say somewhere in between Diazepam or Oxazepam and Alcohol. The only other benzo I've tried was Prazepam, and I didn't like it at all, and it's nothing like Phenibut.

What helps to get a prescription:

1. Do your research and print out relevant papers (have a look over at the Downloads section)
2. If you're having issues with memory/anxiety, write down sound arguments (for example: Keppra is essentially harmless) and bring your notes with you
3. Get an official diagnosis
4. Refuse to take "no" for an answer
5. Learn how to recognize incompetence in a doctor, and see a different doctor until you find one who is both competent and willing to help

That's what helped me at least.

AFAIK Keppra is more sustainable and safer than Sinemet, which is why I preferred it over Sinemet (and the doctors will too).

I wouldn't know if HPPD is GABA-B receptor specific (haven't read anything that would indicate that). Phenibut helped with anxiety and DP/DR, but it didn't do much for visuals. Actually sometimes it made them worse, but the benefits outweighed that. I prefer Kava Kava over Phenibut though (less sedation and more clarity, also basically harmless stuff as opposed to Phenibut), but it's contraindicated with Keppra so I didn't buy more when I ran out.

Anyway just be persistent and patient (yeah the latter can be tricky, I know), and you'll get what you need.

 

Ok, thank you for the advice. I have quite a good relationship with my GP as I've seen him for years and he has generally been quite liberal with prescriptions, so we shall see. As far as Kava Kava goes I believe that is illegal in my country as far as I'm aware.

 

Cheers.

[onedayillsailagain]

Any time man.
Yup it's illegal here too I believe. Hehe.
I thought the Netherlands was the only country where it was illegal.. Oh well.

Good luck.

[Jay1]

I tend to go something like this:

 

Saturday - 1mg

Sunday - 1.5mg

Monday - 0.5mg

 

Nothing for the rest of the week. (Some weeks i just have the Sunday dose)

 

If I go on vacation, i'll happily take 1.5mg everyday for 2-3 weeks.

 

The key to all this (for me) is that i have 7 days completely free of benzos every month or so, and if i've had a vacation... I'll take 2 weeks off benzos.

 

I've lived like this for 4 years now and see no real tolerance or addiction. The only thing i do notice is that if i have 2 weeks on 1.5mg, then go 2 weeks off.... I don't sleep very well for the 1st week or so.

[Sam93]

I tend to go something like this:

 

Saturday - 1mg

Sunday - 1.5mg

Monday - 0.5mg

 

Nothing for the rest of the week. (Some weeks i just have the Sunday dose)

 

If I go on vacation, i'll happily take 1.5mg everyday for 2-3 weeks.

 

The key to all this (for me) is that i have 7 days completely free of benzos every month or so, and if i've had a vacation... I'll take 2 weeks off benzos.

 

I've lived like this for 4 years now and see no real tolerance or addiction. The only thing i do notice is that if i have 2 weeks on 1.5mg, then go 2 weeks off.... I don't sleep very well for the 1st week or so.

 

Cheers Jay,

 

Do you notice any rebound anxiety or any other ill effects the day after your 3 days on Kpin at all? I noticed reading your posts from a while back that you said 2mg gave you a 70% reduction in visuals, and I see that you've dropped that down to 1.5mg, was there any reason for that? Not to be a nosey bugger, I only ask because 2mg leaves me a bit spaced to the point people notice I'm on something, and I've never tried a 1.5mg dose.

 

The main thing for me is that it mitigates the dissociation somewhat, and I've had fairly normal days since 'contracting' hppd, which keeps me sane in a way, haha.

[Jay1]

I don't get any added anxiety, but having 3 days with less anxiety maybe focuses the "normal" anxiety on Tuesday.... By the afternoon though, i'm in my normal mindset. I think a heavy session at the gym helps.

 

Yea, i dropped to 1.5mg as i don't get so tired as when i was on 2mg... I was just sleeping through Sunday, and that is no way to live. I find, with 1.5mg, i can have a mild coffee too, and stay awake without anxiety.

 

Yea, having benzos around is keeping me sane, for sure. That is why i'm desperately trying to treat them with respect, so that i can have this magic bullet for the rest of my life (or until a proper cure comes out!)

[Sam93]

I don't get any added anxiety, but having 3 days with less anxiety maybe focuses the "normal" anxiety on Tuesday.... By the afternoon though, i'm in my normal mindset. I think a heavy session at the gym helps.

 

Yea, i dropped to 1.5mg as i don't get so tired as when i was on 2mg... I was just sleeping through Sunday, and that is no way to live. I find, with 1.5mg, i can have a mild coffee too, and stay awake without anxiety.

 

Yea, having benzos around is keeping me sane, for sure. That is why i'm desperately trying to treat them with respect, so that i can have this magic bullet for the rest of my life (or until a proper cure comes out!)

 

That sounds good, I think I'll try a weekend routine like yours and see how I go, the only thing I'm struggling with at the minute is after a couple of days on Benzo's, when I wake up Monday morning it's the psychological mindset of 'oh, I've got a week of this again' but I'm sure coping mechanisms improve with time.

 

Can I ask if you still have dissociation/if you had it in the first place? Particularly emotional numbing? This is the thing I struggle with the most as being in a relationship it's quite hard not being able to feel much towards my girlfriend. 

 

Cheers Jay.

[Jay1]

Yea, you just need to focus on the idea of "right, only another 4 days and it's another benzo break". Luckily, the one thing hppd hasn't stripped me of is a generally optimistic outlook.

 

As for dissociation.... I get a bit mixed up with all the terms, i don't really have emotional numbing, as such, but i do have big problems communicating and interacting socially. My wife just had a cancerous mole removed and it took all my energy to even show her i cared, even though i was cut up inside. Thankfully, she just thought i was trying to stay laid back and keep her calm... She even thanked me, how fucked up is that!

[Sam93]

Yea, you just need to focus on the idea of "right, only another 4 days and it's another benzo break". Luckily, the one thing hppd hasn't stripped me of is a generally optimistic outlook.

 

As for dissociation.... I get a bit mixed up with all the terms, i don't really have emotional numbing, as such, but i do have big problems communicating and interacting socially. My wife just had a cancerous mole removed and it took all my energy to even show her i cared, even though i was cut up inside. Thankfully, she just thought i was trying to stay laid back and keep her calm... She even thanked me, how fucked up is that!

Yeah, at least there's something to keep me sane, if there was no magic bullet for me to take then fuck knows what state I'd be in haha!

As for dissociation (DP/DR) its just a feeling of being disconnected from yourself and your emotions, so while I can still laugh my head off at a funny joke, the emotion behind the laugh is blunted, I'm not sure if you understand what I mean. Or another example would be if I saw, say, a homeless person on the streets, I know intellectually that I feel sorry for them but I don't feel it emotionally to a great deal. Benzos give me some emotion back though which is great, anyway I'm rambling.

Hope your wife is OK!

[Jay1]

yea, all clear, thanks.

 

As for DP/DR... I get the floaty, out of body, nothing seems real, trippy feeling.... But i seem to still have my emotions in tact. I am particularly empathetic towards animals and nature..... although, i too don't really give a shit about some homeless guy or even some famine in Africa... I never did pre-hppd though... I had a realisation very early on in life (about 10) that there are way too many people on the planet and death is a good way to get rid (Edit -  i just read that line back and it sounds like something the press would quote if i ever went berserk, hahah)

[Sam93]

yea, all clear, thanks.

 

As for DP/DR... I get the floaty, out of body, nothing seems real, trippy feeling.... But i seem to still have my emotions in tact. I am particularly empathetic towards animals and nature..... although, i too don't really give a shit about some homeless guy or even some famine in Africa... I never did pre-hppd though... I had a realisation very early on in life (about 10) that there are way too many people on the planet and death is a good way to get rid (Edit -  i just read that line back and it sounds like something the press would quote if i ever went berserk, hahah)

 

Good good.

 

Yeah that's the feeling I mean. I love being out in nature but when I'm there I still get the DP/DR feeling of not being connected with my surroundings, if you know what I mean. I feel very empathetic toward animals too, more so than humans most of the time.

 

God knows how you've put up with it for so long mate! 

[hppd33]

I was on 4mg a day (clonazepam,rivotril,klonopin) I was sooo freaking tired from it and i went insane because i thought i was cured, talking about all kinda bullshit and want to to talk to anyone, with a very zombie-look from eyes, i scared some people they said, so i tried to lower the doses and i am now stable on 0,7MG

half in morning 0.25 afternoon 0.25 evening 0.25. And still I am very tired. Maybe its because I also take lamotrigine lexapro and seroquel and levocitricine.

 

I lost my memory from rivotril, i dont speak often, because i sometimes do not know what to talk about, and i am afraid to say something wrong with my depressed face. I cant laugh or make a little smile when i walk on the street, i hate it so much. 

 

Though what helps alot for my hppd and DR is a sunglass, its like nobody sees your eyes, and the visuals/intense colors are not so bad.

Only thing, its weird to have sunglasses on everywere. Though it helps me, and i can smile on the streets (sometimes)

 

Also buy a scooter(no helmet required) it makes you feel connected somehow, i feel good riding that thing, a car is sometimes not a good idea, 

and makes me feel more DP/DR.

 

What i hate the most is that i cannot keep up all day, and have limits in life. This is not what i want, i'm still fighting with that. 

I know i must accept it, and hope for a cure. 

 

smoking helps me too, i can blow the stress away and have someting todo, or play with my phone. I can't sit at home relaxing anymore, i have this feeling of rush in me that io have to do someting, that might gonna make me feel better. Like doing my garden, it made me feel good, and while working i wqasnt thinking about my problems.

 

No alcohol is fucked up too. Sometimes i just want super relief and drink a nice cold Heineken ;( 

 

Anyway its my own fault, and have to accept the consequences of living on the edge.

 

Good night!

[1998]

Seroquel always made me depressed and tired for around 4 hrs the following day after taking a small dose.

 

Lexapro made my dp/dr alot worse also I got weak from it as well. I almost lost a good job till I stopped taking that ssri.

 

Obviously we're different so I'm not saying you should quit any meds, just telling you my experiences with them.

 

How long were you on 4mg of klonopin a day and how long did the withdrawals last???? You've done a great job cutting down (i take 4mg daily so curious)

[hppd33]

I have terrible anxiety still, but i was sooo tired of all those meds and my memory was gone, so i tried first takin 1 mg mornig and 1mg afternoon, and 10-11 clock bed time, so i took seroquel.

After that a week later i took 0.5 morning and 0.5 afternoon, my anxiety became worst so i had to be stable for 2 weeks on this dose.

Now i take with each meal, 0.25.

 

My DP/DR is extreme too in the morning when my lexapro 20mg + clonazepam 0.25 and lamotrigine 25mg kicks in, the only thing i want then is going to bed and sleep.

I am not happy with lexapro, it makes me extremly tired and my depression is major.

 

 

What medication do you take?