trip into hell

" Dramatic improvement with naltrexone (50 mg daily) was reported in two young men with LSD-induced HPPD. The remission was sustained as it was possible to discontinue the naltrexone after 2 months without precipitating a relapse "

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3736944/table/table2-2045125312451270/

 

Whats wrong with treating symptoms? Lamictal hasn't "cured" me but it has dramatically increased my quality of life

i cant imagine how this could work for someone...meds never helped me and i think its impossible to be cured...and if i cant get cured its not the right solution to my mind...i also hesitate to agree that someone who claims he got over it is cured when he cant take drugs anymore...this is not a cure because this person is still not back to normal..i think being able to consume something is a proof that you dont have hppd/dp/dr or dont have it anymore...

not to forget that my hppd is over and i still struggle with anxiety disorder and cant find any help...its destroying my life and i dont want to get addicted by prescription meds cause it could be that i wont get it prescribed anymore some day and the withdrawl is terrible...life is just a bunch of shit for me because its not only that it doesnt make sense anymore but also i feel seriously depressed most of the time and cant do anything due to incapability of taking drugs in medium to high doses just as enjoying myself in general...im not one of these persons who can live just to distract themselves from living..i have to be able to relax on myself or i want to die..

fuck meds...none of them work and even if it does..its just a temporary patch for symptoms...no treatment, no cure at all....

i felt this way when i had hppd in my early stages...mostly caused by dp/dr..but my point is as long as you worry about it you are not in danger...

the other thing is, not so long ago i have read an article about a study in a pharmacy news paper and it said: almost 70% of the people who took substances in thier lives known as so called tranquilizers developed alzheimer in their 60-80s...

so if some of you develop alzheimer later in life you can not know if its just why you took benzos or hppd/dp/dr...

i think it makes sense that a substance able to make you forget something you normally cant forget is able to lead to alzheimers (cause the brain gets used to it) where you have no longer the choice to remember or not

Dude, I really don't think shooting up H or popping a few tramadol/vicodin/dilaudid/etc. is a good idea for alleviating panic and anxiety. That's just going to create more problems in the long run (if you get addicted which is very likely). I mean seriously, that's how addictions start. Someone starts to feel bad about something and then they start taking stuff that makes them feel better, perhaps even makes them feel fucking great. They keep doing this over and over again to make the metaphorical (and perhaps physical) pain go away until they start realizing that they need it rather than just want it because when they go without it they start to feel like shit again. Interestingly, it isn't the drugs that necessarily cause addiction (though they do aid in that area with the building of tolerance and whatnot); what causes addiction is when people who are more or less feeling down start to take these types of drugs to not feel so down, and they often do so in relative isolation. We don't see college age kids becoming alcoholics because their drinking is social, they drink when they're already having fun and are around people. People in the hospital who are on painkillers don't always get addicted to them because they're taking them in a non-recreational manner, under close supervision, and with a support base.

 

The people who become addicts are people suffering from sort of psychological pain who have little to no support and see taking these drugs as the only way they can get rid of this pain. Of course, that isn't always the case, but that's what happens a lot. Trust me, I grew up in a family of addicts and they were all addicts because at one point or another they went through a bad spot and started self medicating as a result.

 

I'm not going to stop you though. Your choice. 

im stronger than the most people..my problem is not an addiction potential or that i just want to feel better..i want to use it very carefully and rarely in cases of severe panic..and i didnt even touch the tramal bottle yet because im scared i get panic when im on it...so im less likely to get addicted to something in my life again...i just smoke weed very rarely (every 2 month and just for a week) but only if i feel good..the only thing im addicted to is nicotine for 3 month now and even though it makes me feel a bit more relaxed im about to quit again because i dont like the thought of being a smoker...you see im actually a very careful person and full of fears and anxiety if i feel strange somehow which stops me from risky bahavior..

Bang on mate, this is exactly where I was 20+ years ago... So far into the drug life that I couldn't even differentiate between come downs, highs and mental disorders.

 

I don't think I have seen one person on here who is "scaring" people off drugs for any reason other than empathy and compassion, based on our own mistakes with drugs. 

 

Just be thankful that to have the internet, where you can get information from people who have been there, done that. Some of us didn't have such a luxury.

you are right its really good to have the internet just for diagnosing yourself and get some recommendations...but sometimes i think its a curse...

This forum was down when my symptoms first presented themselves. I wish I had the warnings others are lucky enough to get. I had comparatively minor symptoms of just visual snow and BFEP at first. I continued to occasionally smoke weed and take MDMA (I was never a big user), as well as drink a lot of alcohol. I cannot be sure what caused the spike but a few months later I developed a whole variety of other visual and non-visual symptoms. At the time I felt very ill. I then ceased all drugs (including alcohol), and tried to live as healthy as I could. Over a few months I recovered fully from some non-visual symptoms (e.g. head pressure, severe headaches, some trippy feelings that are hard to explain). I was then left with residual visual symptoms and some non-visual symptoms such as fasciculations, chronic pain and minor tinnitus. By steering well clear of all drugs, these symptoms have remained stable for several years and by taking Keppra I have mostly eliminated the pain as a factor.

 

At my worst, I was unable to function at all. My life would have been a shambles. I am now able to mostly live as someone who does not have HPPD. The fear of being put back into a situation where I am not function and would not be able to achieve my life goals completely eliminates any desire I have to take drugs ever again in my life.

that sounds awful...im so sorry...

Human nature shit. Less than 5% of the population take a psychedelic *ever* in their life. There is plenty of people who don't try alcohol *ever* in their life. So yeah, there you go. You may not have HPPD again, but don't delude yourself into thinking that drugs are *safe*. Even more, don't delude yourself into thinking that drugs are *necessary*

We are not scaring people, here most of us have/had HPPD. I don't go to forums about drugs telling users to stop or moderate. I did weeks long amphetamine binges stopping to eat and sleep something every three days, and my HPPD wasn't that bad!! I did that after one year with low level HPPD. I don't even fucking know when my HPPD crossed the line and I was completely retarded and messed up. I was so into drugs that I didn't know what was normal anymore.. One year ago I wasn't able to look outside of the window due to the strong patterning I saw on the walls, the cables and clothesline leaving colors, afterimages.. I know I'm better because I can look outside of the window now.

Gman, do what you can. Been there, done that. I just say to you that it's by sheer luck that I didn't commit suicide or ruined my life completely. Your mileage may vary.

man when i said experimenting with altered states i didnt just talk about the group of substances called psychedelics...i mean every kind of substance that puts you in another state of mind...and most if not all people have tryed or will try or even consume something regulary in their lives.

i never said drugs are necessary or safe and i dont even think this way...but they arent the opposite either...and constantly telling someone they are dangerous who is taking them regardless of what you say (and he got told hundrets of times already) means spreading anxiety to me..or is useless in the best case.

but its ok i know you just want to protect someone from experiencing the same shit you did..

If you have had HPPD, then you have a genetic predisposition to the disorder. If you are in remission you are not cured because you still have the same genetic predisposition which allowed you to get HPPD in the first place. If you know you have a genetic predisposition (everyone on this forum does), then the only sensible choice is to avoid drugs for the rest of your life. Especially drugs which, time and time again, users have reported as worsening symptoms permanently. Just because you are fine after one use does not mean you will be fine after the next use.

 

If you cannot resist the urge to continue to take drugs then you should seek professional help.

you do not know if its genetic + its very hard to abstain all mind altering substances for the rest of life because its just human nature to experiment with altered states of mind...i dont have hppd anymore but i dont fear to get it back because i already had terrible trips on pretty potent canna oil etc. and it didnt come back.. even though i smoke weed here and there (in small amounts again because i get panic attacks from smoking more)..the thing i do avoid is to do strong mind altering substances and smoking too much weed because as mentioned already i fear panic attacks.

the point is i dont recommend taking drugs but i dont try to scare somebody who does and is able to enjoy it..because i think spreading anxiety can also make it worse for some people.

You're right. Sorry about that, it was out of line.

The substance is an important matter, especially for a study. I would like to know what would happen if you gave them 25i-nbome. About genetics, I think it does because of the number of first time consumption HPPD. What do you think it is if not genetics? I doubt that it has much to do with the setting or mindset. My first trip was perfect and the next day I had a low level HPPD. Had very strong and some bad trips doing Salvia leafs enriched with DMT and the HPPD didn't go way worse. We don't have much evidence to either side so I leave it at that. Maybe the cause is a different thing, or maybe all influence the onset of HPPD.

There are degrees of certainty on studies. Of course I "judge" ones to be more probably certain than others. Reproducibility is a thing. Psychological advantage/disadvantage is purely something derived of your criteria. For me greater self-control, happiness, self-efficacy, intelligence.. are advantages.

I'm not in real life, there I don't criticize anyone. But here that trains me to dispute rationalizing thoughts and may help others to see the light without receiving any real flak from it. In the worse case scenario I just wasted your time and made an random on the internet think bad about me. In the best I may help another person see why their thoughts are wrong and I trained my brain to dispute those thoughts.

if its not genetics maybe it has to do with a bad setting, mindset, overdose or even (most likely) the bad psychological predisposition caused by the society we are raised by and live in with their shitty values stupid behavior etc. this alone can make you (subconsciousness) insane in the brain without even realizing it and when you expand your consciousness its unavoidable so youre freaking out...and while having a bad trip or using these substances in a bad way (since psychedelics can create solid connections in the brain) there are areas connected in the brain that shouldnt work together or so...which cause the visual distortions etc.... just as when you have the right motive behind and trip in the right way

(i guess there is a reason why the shamans have very strict rules in there ritual trips, always doing it the same way) you get the real benefits of psychs....its a pity that we havent learned to use it the right way and somebody told us there are no good drugs out there (fucked up society)... but dont take it too serious its just a theory which to my mind has more potential to be real than most of the others

of course they are advantages but with psychological disturbances you are likely not to be able to fully use your greater self-control, happiness, self-efficacy or intelligence...its all one somehow.

man..youre makeing fun of me...dont you...go get a serious alcohol intoxication and just dont bother me with bs.

Trip, it is clear that you have very fixed views about hppd and drugs, so I am not sure what you can really gain from these sort of conversations... Maybe Gman is different, he seems to swing from cautious to risk taking from day to day (which is true of most teens).

i have no fixed views but i have enough experience and good knowledge about this topic..so i have good reasons to think so...i just started to discuss here cause the people were so ignorant and tryed to scare me and thegman even though i already know the risks and so on...not to forget that the thegman didnt know that he smoked spice and he wouldnt have done it if he knew it..there wasnt a reason for a lesson again...

but its all good man.. i know most people just meant it well..

I suppose you're referring to that study that found that people who consumed psychedelic drugs where slightly more intelligent than average. I haven't read the study to know how well it was designed/performed, and I can think of a lot of ways such a study could give invalid results. Neither I know what you're implying there. What do you mean by "Intelligence is completely benign when factoring in substance use/abuse."?

Most psychological measures are determined in a 40-50% because of genetics. You can take a look at the papers in behavioral genetics, it's a pretty well established and replicated fact (monozygotic twin studies). Even more, the genetics of your parents also influence the environment in which you will live so part of your nurture is also influenced by genetics, making it having even a stronger effect. About HPPD ? I don't know. I think most probably we have some genetic differences. There is no evidence of that.

Maybe mescaline doesn't produce HPPD ? Maybe those studies had a small sample or were just lucky ? Maybe there were some interests in saying everything is fine due to individual or societal incentives ?

I don't blame no one, they're just what they are. I may say why I think something happens to somebody, but I don't actually care nor judge at all. If I do it's more for my benefit as I'm also easy to fall on such erroneous negative thinking patterns and rationalizations. I don't know nor care what you do nor should do. I certainly think you're stupid, but I don't feel anything about it. No offense I just think you're. I'm mad at no one, not even me nowadays. And God forbid me to be jealous of you because you decide to smoke weed. It's fair that I say whatever I want to say, as it's fair that you do.

but how can you say im stupid if you are not judging me in any way??...thats so rediculous...but think what you have to..it seems that you dont care about anything at all...if that isnt a sign of stupidity...nah fuck it...its no use...why am i trying to speak to someone like you..this is the reason why i dont like hppdonline sometimes

mescaline can trigger (not cause) hppd just as lsd, dmt, psilocin, lsa, mdma, etc.or even marijuana and prescription meds. ...so its just logical that it has to do with the individual who takes them which doesnt mean that genetics are at fault...n dont forget that there are even natives who use psilocin other psychedelics ritually and i dont think they have such issues cause if so they wouldnt do it anymore.

you do judge in specific ways cause you say you dont trust studies that show psychedelics are somehow good but you believe a study or some paper that states that in many cases genetics are the reason for some adverse psychological reactions...of course different genetics affect us in different ways but im absolutely not sure if this means a psychological advantage/disadvantage.

i guess you think a bit too critical..but in a bad way 

The biggest issue with taking drugs that might affect your hppd is measuring your baseline symptoms.

 

Imagine a normal person has a hppd baseline of 0 out of 100 (eg, no symptoms)

 

Now imagine you have a baseline of 35

 

You take a drug, feel high, have a good time.

 

The next day you are at a 40.. You feel a bit different, but nothing to worry about. The next day you go down to 36... You don't even notice a difference form your normal baseline of 35, so think that drug is pretty safe. But your baseline now stays at 36.

 

The problem mounts over months, even years.... You can soon find your baseline slowly rise to very uncomfortable levels, but the rise is in such small increments that it sneaks up on you.

 

This is EXACTLY what happened to me... I kept using drugs, I kept enjoying drugs... I very slowly went from manageable hppd to severe hppd.

 

Now factor in the medications that might be masking your baseline "rise"... What happens if you get tolerant to the medication and have to stop? You then notice the baseline rise.

yeah i know what youre talking about but mine came from an overdose while having a panic attack...i never had problems from the about over 300 trips i had before..it was just too much the last time and i freaked out.

Trip i don't think that the individuals on this board who offer you advice or warn you of the possible negative outcomes of continuing to smoke weed/do drugs are jealous. Many have been where you are and just don't want you to make the same mistakes as they did. I know it sounds cliche but it's probably true.

Also this is a condition that's still in its infancy as far as medical research/studies, possible precipitates, and treatments are concerned. So please don't give into the false assumption that you may never get hppd again. I don't mean to sound harsh or demeaning but its true.

I had mild hppd for a few years not even knowing what it was but I beat it. I never touched another illicit substance for 16 years besides the occasional alcoholic beverage now and again. Yet it was Celexa (an ssri) and a very brief period of extreme stress that brought on these strange visual disturbances again (worse than before).

Now I'm in my 30's with a wife and kids while having to fight this again due to the fact that I was young once and just experimented a few times with lsd. I'm not trying to lecture you but just be careful man.

thanks...im sorry for you..and i couldnt live this way and even though im sure i wont get hppd back im still careful

If someone is an alcoholic and a doctor tells them they need to stop drinking or their liver will fail, it would be pretty dumb if they kept drinking just because they enjoy getting sloshed.

Drug use has caused our brains to malfunction to such an extent that we are constantly hallucinating and dealing with debilitating anxiety. It's probably not the smartest thing in the world to continue using drugs. Personally, I think not having HPPD sounds more enjoyable than getting high for a couple of hours.

its not the same thing ...a liver failure is a much more serious problem and alcohol is causing physical damage..whereas when it comes to hppd no damage in the brain or anywhere else has been proved...which is just logical cause alcohol causes physical damage for sure but for example lsd or psilocin does not so there is no reason to think we have destroyed something..if you think about other substances such as synthetic weed its another story...

The problem is... It doesn't work for you or Gman either

You can't smoke weed without needing to contemplate taking herion to stop the weed induced anxiety

 no i can ctually smoke small amounts and enjoy it...but when i smoke more iget anxiety or panic attacks...and i decided not to take heroin i got tramal from a friend but i didnt even touch it yet..

   

One of the reasons I left the forum was because of that. I was pretty tired of a lot of users whining about their HPPD while doing all kinds of irrational risky behavior.

I can understand perfectly why one can relapse to a given drug even if you have HPPD. It happened to me a few times due to cues and very strong cravings. Others I just disregarded the probable negative outcome and fell short of rationality and biased/rationalized myself to drug consumption. We are humans and we are fallible. But what I never experienced was rationalizing and being complacent with the fact after it happened.

Consuming synthetic weed, which is known to fuck you considerably in the short-term, it's negligent. Doing it while consuming psychiatric medications and suffering HPPD is completely dumb, idiotic, and worthy of the results that it brings.

Humanity judges correctly when allocating the resources. People with the genetic disadvantages toward addiction and a low level of meta-cognition, intelligence, self-control, emotional regulation/awareness, whatever.. are a bunch of losers in the criteria of the sum of total humanity. And I don't find any dumbness in the application of said criteria.

how can you say its genetic...it has nothing to do with that...i think everybody has the potential to trigger a bad mental condition while a bad trip due to the way our society works these days (disfunctional families, bullies, wars, idiotic values..thats where bad predispositions come from)... and the way we deal with substances. there are not many people out there without the potential to become ill cause the majority is affected by the madness of the stupid society ...for example the shaman aboriginals who use mescaline regulary have never heard of hppd...and guess what..they live in a better society + they have learned to use psychedelics with the right motive behind them, i bet this is the reason why they cant develope hppd or similar...

and even if it would be genetic..there is still no reason to blame the people for  bad genetics or saying they are stupid because they want to enjoy something they always enjoyed before..its our nature to use substances to conquer our subconsciousness...

and synthetic drugs are another story..im not saying do synthetics..i just want to say there is no reason for being mad at people for what they like/do just because it didnt work for you

...and you know what...i also hate hppdonline sometimes but for another reason...because people always want to tell me im stupid and what i should or shouldnt do when im just asking for experience or help....sometimes i think some people are jealous that they cant do what they once did and loved and thats why they tell me ''dont do it either'' ...i enjoy small amounts of weed again and i will never get hppd back or something...im cured..the only thing i have is that i get panic when i smoke too much...but im not crying around..im facing this shit until i get back to normal and smoke as much as i want...+ its not fair that you tell others what they should do and stupid enough to be mad at them

 

This thread illustrates:

• The reason researchers won't bother to look for cures for HPPD
• Why many doctors don't do much to help HPPD
• Why CBT is the most important treatment for HPPD
• Why society considers drug users a bunch of losers

maybe youre right.. but your response (if true) illustrates that humanity is stupid cause its not very intelligent to state that people who consume something are losers and also that not helping someone with a serious problem is ok just because this person might be taking again something that led to his condition in the first place or at least has the potential to do so...its a sign of how people are judged for doing something which still seems to be a kind of taboo in our society even though everyone consumes various substances in hes life and people have even triggered these conditions with ligitimate medications that the same doctors who are against drugs prescribed to them...

just remember that its not the substances themselves who are causing the problem...they just have the potential to trigger it in people with a negative predisposition of a specific kind...so there is no reason for one to blame the people for having tryed something in there lives...the problem is not the substances it is the society we live in that made it possible for these bad mental conditions to exist and be triggered through the expansion of consciousness.

why are there people in this world who cant even imagine how painful and boring it is for someone, not beeing able to do what he/she wants to and simply enjoy life while these people can...we just want to be free and have some fun in life...is that too much...its so sad if you ask me..there has to be another way to cure or at least deal with these conditions without judging the innocent.

yeah maybe...man i would like to try some buspirone to see if its able to protect me from panic attacks while tripping...i mean its not that i cant smoke weed at all...but i just can smoke small amounts without panic and i want to be really fucking high again..that would be so nice ...

i ask myself if there is a way to get some without these stupid doctors..

XD...nice...im not supporting the idea of taking synthetic drugs at all...but if you enjoyed it..its quite cool...

and dont be scared of the afterglow or something...the trip is over and you seem to be pretty tough to be able to enjoy synthetic weed at all with this predisposition...i would be proud somehow

oh come on..thats so typical for hppdonlne.com...one is asking for experience and advice of a specific kind and the only thing he gets is a lesson or people who try to scare him/her...i cant read it anymore...always crying around and telling people dont do it because i cant do it myself...sometimes i think you dont want to help someone or dont want to get any help yourselves.

and please dont tell me there is no one out there who had experience with this...

nah...fuck it...i wont ask anymore..you always bring me down...

does it matter at all? hppd/dp/dr is hppd/dp/dr and as long as its not gone..its useless to think about it...sorry for being realistic

Why risk things getting worse?

swim isnt taking any risk at all...as mentioned above swim is done with hppd/dp/dr (he is cured and swore off that shit forever).

anxiety/panic attacks/depression arent really his problems anymore too unless he is experiencing medium - strong altered states of a specific kind (like driving too fast in some vehicle) or he takes too much of something and for that reason he needs the aid of a substance able to cancel anxiety/depression of every kind....not a cure..swim knows there is no cure and it will heal over time...but until then he wants to ease/cheer up himself a little ocasionally.

he was just asking for advice and your experience...no lessons please

Why does everyone use the name "swim" ? Who the fuck is swim ?

swim = somone who isnt me

Hi, I never took tramadol for anxiety but i read it can trigger HPPD...yours is gone now, don't take the risk. In my opinion, pharmaceutical drugs are useless in case of severe anxiety. I was on Lexomil, Seresta, Ativan for a time (tappering since few months, only take 0.85mg for sleep now), sure it helps a lot at the beginning but tolerance develops rapidly and it doesn't cure this condition. Not at all, and as tolerance increases, you feel more and more helpless. CBT may be usefull, but in my case sophrology cured me from extreme anxiety in 3-4 months (life was a losing battle, could'nt think or watch tv or sleep, wanted to kill myself 50 times/day cause this meaningless fear  was so strong).I know this is an awful condition and this is a struggle everyday, but you need to calm your mind by working on the presence of your body, this is a good way to overcome this s***, mind can't do this because it's a part of the problem. This is the purpose of sophrology, i'm not cured yet but now I can live with myself most of the time.

my probs were as severe as yours in the first few month (completely debilitating) but i managed to wipe it out over time.

now im sufficient my hppd wont come back cause i already had a lot of trips on different heavy drugs since then and i only had panic attacks but no hppd ...and hppd is something i wouldnt care about if it occurs without anxiety or depression...my main issues from the beginning were dp/dr and anxiety...now dp/dr is gone and im left with anxiety which only comes haunting me when i smoke too much weed...or take too much another substance ...for this purpose i need the tramal or something else that could be of help for this purpose.

by the way did you try tramal at all?