Sam93

Simply said.. if you take it daily, you will rapidly build a tolerance.. it won't touch your symptoms and you'll keep upping your dose.. you know that story.

It is unlikely that you will have another 'HPPD-free' day unless you wait for it all to get out of your system, even if you only take it once a week, it still won't be that noticeable. Just be content with some alleviation. And just keep it at once a week, if not longer, I suggest. And even if you get to your seven days without, think if you really need it. Save it till you do. And keep the doses as small as possible, my advice to you. Sorry to be boring, but that's probably the best advice. I had my 'HPPD-free' moment.. was only on the first benzo dose I tried. I have kept it at least a week between use since then (well, not initially, I got excited, which proved to be not so magic bullet-y) and it doesn't come any where near that. 

Think long term; ie. smaller doses, more spread out.

 

Edit: so to answer your question, more directly on controlling benzo use.. just strong determination of the mind. Be really strict with yourself. And also try and use that to feel good anyway, i.e without benzos. Try not to place too much emphasis of the benzo magic bullet thing. It's just one thing of a much bigger healing process.

PS: I say this as a lover of benzo recreational use and a large stash of all sorts of benzos at my disposal. I still maintain the above with strict adherence (i.e not just saying it to be an ass )

Hi Syntheso, thanks for the reply.

I do know that will power is the main thing I need to put into practice so I don't get into a vicious pattern of benzo abuse, but it's just the psychological ideology that if I do something as mundane as swallowing a pill, I have great relief for an entire day. It's so easy.

On the up side though, a day where I do take Klono is a day to look forward to, and I think I make the most of those days a lot more because you appreciate them that much more. The main thing for me is that my DP/DR is quite bad and Klono gives me some emotion back. 

Another question that comes to mind is, say if I take 2mg of Klono, how long do I have to wait before my tolerance dies down to the point where it'd have the same effect as the first time I took it? I hope that makes sense.

Basically, if I took 2MG of Klono every sunday, would tolerance likely to be an issue at all or would the relief be quite consistent dosing in that manner?

Thank you.

Hey guys!

Well I managed to get a Klono prescription after visiting a private neuro and I know I posted before that it didnt work, but after a few more tries it is working brilliantly, basically hppd free, both visuals and dpdr after a 2mg dose, the drowsiness isn't great but that's a side effect I can live with.

I know Klono should be used as a magic bullet for those situations you need some relief, or just used sparingly one day a week as a hppd free day, but its so hard not to say F it and take them every day and just be done with this nonsense for a while. But at the same time, I really don't want to mess this magic bullet up.

Does anyone have any advice on how to control my use of Benzos? I don't want an addiction under my belt as well as the horror of hppd but it really does give me my life back.

Thanks and hope you all have a good day.

NO

NO

NO

I'll expand on this later, but just NO.

source: experience

edit: well, I talked a bit about it in this post. Micro-dosing might be safe, so as to not have a full-blown, I-can-barely-walk, psycho-spiritual journey.

And if you want to try everything, as you said, then try tDCS first. I had an occasion where I was DP-free for at least 15 minutes. The short effect duration might be due to the fact that it was a home-made device and placement might've been improper. HD-tDCS has a lot more potential than tDCS, so it might also be able to have profounder, longer lasting effects than regular tDCS.

In any case, if done correctly, tDCS is completely harmless. Tends to make it climb the ladder of preferability a little.

Hi there,

Can I ask what area of the brain you targeted on the occasion you became DP free for that short duration? Thanks.

Hi there,

I managed to get hold of some clonazepam and tried a 2mg dose to see what relief it would bring.

While it did reduce my visuals and snow to almost nothing it did absolutely nothing for my DP/DR. The dissociation is definitely not anxiety related as I don't suffer with anxiety at all.

I'm struggling to think what to do next, the dissociation is killing me. I don't even feel alive any more and nothing feels real, I have the emotions of a robot. It wouldn't be so hard if I could enjoy things but its pretty much impossible when you don't feel emotions.

I really don't see why I have such bad dissociation as my hppd is relatively mild, aside from the visual snow which isn't all that bad my only complaints are trails, tracers, after images and very light patterning if I stare at a wall etc. basically if I'm outside my vision looks completely normal, so why I have such extreme detachment is beyond me.

Thanks.

Actually Ketamine is a NMDA antagonist, meaning it blocks its function basically.

However it can't be ruled out that some glutamatergic storm took place, or that there has been a long-term alteration in glutamatergic transmission.

But I like your defense-mechanism theory as to why there's dissociation!

Following your neurochemical theory though; if there's still NMDA overload taking place, then an agonist would only worsen symptoms.

Glutamate is seen as the basic excitatory neurotransmitter, and seeing as there's believed to be pre-epileptic/convulsant/hyperexcitability involved in HPPD, I doubt there's a thereapeutic potential in NMDA agonists.

From what I've learned, it's best to focus not on a single neurotransmitter, but more on regional excitability and focal therapy (like tDCS: regional excitability changes.. I've had marginal succes with that, particularly for the DP/DR symptoms).

Indeed I believe DP/DR is closely related to anxiety as well, and there might be some dysfunction of the fear response. Personally I notice that after a period of anxiety, my DP/DR gets worse. When there's little anxiety, it doesn't get much better though, it just plateaus I suppose.

If you don't have anxiety, my guess is that raising excitability in your frontal regions (especially ventromedial PFC) would be beneficial.

Sam, I'm not in any position to make recommendations, but you might want to consider tDCS if you're not planning on medication. It's a non-invasive (and of its class, the least invasive) form of brain stimulation. Again, my experiences were.. how to say.. profound but very transient. Like I flashed back to reality for a few minutes, and then it was gone. But I must note that the device I used was homemade, moreover was the positioning done by myself (could've been that it wasn't directly over the correct region). I'm very eager to see HD-tDCS come to the market soon, as it provided for much better "aiming" and less (almost no) effects in the surrounding (non-targetted) regions.

Some believe HPPD is a form of Toxic Encephalitis or (glutamatergic/NMDA) excitotoxicity. Mitochondrial supporting supplements I suppose would help in this regard, limiting excitotoxicity to possibly reversing it (don't quote me on that, but I'm sure it won't hurt).

Anyway, I'd stay away from the NMDA agonists if I were you. Have a glance over at Research Articles for some other theories, and I believe recently I posted something about the neurobiological associations with DP/DR.

All the best,

Odisa.

Interesting information, thank you for that. 

By tDCS I assume you mean Transcranial direct-current stimulation right? I'm not too familiar with that but your results do sound interesting!

Indeed there does seem to be dysfunction in the fear response, as my startle response has definitely declined significantly post-hppd. With DP/DR it is all emotional response that is declined or 'numbed' and not just fear though I suppose.

Perhaps due to the cerebral dis-inhibition and hyperexcitability in the brain, somewhere in the brain the hyper excitability has been 'mistaken' for strong anxiety and as a result, dissociation has happened? Just a wild theory.

I do think our DP/DR is slightly different to that of full blown depersonalization disorder or dissociation from PTSD for instance. For example, if I hear something funny enough, I can still cry with laughter, or I can still appreciate music, or a beautiful scenery in nature etc. It's just the emotional response that is missing. Maybe this is some dysfunction in some part of the brain that deals with emotional response to external stimuli (Possibly the Amygdala?) or perhaps it could even be a dopamine issue / something wrong in the rewards system, who knows. 

I suppose in DP/DR there seems to be a blockade or disruption of communication between the areas of the brain that deal with emotions/emotional responses and the areas that deal with our experience of reality/consciousness. However I do know Science is far from understanding the Neurochemical/Psychological mechanism behind consciousness. 

What makes me think it's more than just an excitatory issue is the fact that sedatives such as benzodiazepines do absolutely nothing for my DP/DR, 

Thanks for your post!

Sam.

Hello everyone,

I was just wondering why Clonazepam is the benzo of choice for the treatment of HPPD? As in, what properties does this particular Benzo hold that makes  it suitable for HPPD as opposed to other Benzo's such as Xanax, Valium, Nitrazepam etc?

I know Clonazepam has a moderately long half life of up to 50 hours but it got me thinking that a benzo with a longer half life such as Diazepam (up to 300 hours I believe) would be more suited? 

I do know Clonazepam reduces the binding affinity of Seretonin at receptor sites, is this the reason why?

I've experimented with a few different Benzo's post-hppd and it seems that the more anxiolytic Benzos do very little for my visuals and the more hypnotic/sedative Benzos help them a lot. I have yet to try Clonazepam. 

Hi everyone,

I've been thinking about this particular symptom and the reasons why us HPPDers have it, has there ever been any research in to why we should have DP/DR? This is an inescapable symptom for me and is by far the worst.

I do know that DP/DR type symptoms are usually a co-morbid symptom with anxiety, however I barely suffer with any anxiety yet am still dissociated constantly, it never changes or fluctuates, it is always the same. 

One theory I came up with was that at the start of the onset of HPPD, most of us had extreme anxiety and since there was no escape to the 'threat' (our vision) the only thing our brains could do was dissociate us to escape from it, like a defence mechanism. I guess you can't escape from your senses and extreme anxiety from something you can't escape from is much different to worrying about a final exam or financial troubles etc.

Unless something has actually changed in our neurochemistry and this symptom is a result of that? As Psychedelics agonise 5HT receptors which in turn overload NMDA receptors to provide their effects I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong), and NMDA receptors are the main receptors targeted from dissociatives such as Ketamine etc, perhaps this is why, as our NMDA receptors are still overloaded and as a result, we have dissociation? 

Perhaps an NMDA receptor agonist would provide relief from this symptom? Although I can't think of any.

Hey Sam,

welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing you story!

Seeing as you are hoping to recover without medications, perhaps consider some good supplements to help that process, along with proper nutrition of course. It'll definitely help your cause, and you'll feel better about yourself for investing in pills that are good for you If you need references: Longecity.org, Examine.com and Lef.org are good places to start educating yourself on how to support a healthy lifestyle through nutraceuticals.

I wish you the best of luck.

Odisa.

Hi, thanks for your reply

Currently I'm supplementing with Vitamin C, Vitamin B complex, Omega 3, N Acetyl Cysteine and Magnesium, and have tried some legal benzos (in my country anyway) namely Etizolam and Pyrazolam which do help the visuals a lot, however they are expensive and I don't think I'll bother.

Living healthily and getting in to a routine has definitely helped however.

Hello everyone

Great to finally be on the forums after lurking for a while, my name's Sam and I'm 20 years old currently living in Derbyshire, England. 

I developed HPPD after a trip on 25b-nBOME, which is the only hallucinogen I've ever taken. I pretty much woke up with the HPPD the day after the trip and it has not improved in the 3 months since, if anything it has got slightly worse.

My main symptoms are visual snow, patterns on surfaces, wobbly edges, long trails/after-images and slight movement of objects when I look at them for more than a few seconds, and letters flashing with different colours. However my worst symptom by far is the dissociation (or DP/DR if you like?) I feel very disconnected from myself, my surroundings and my emotions. 

The first week after developing HPPD I couldn't leave the house due to the extreme anxiety and panic attacks I was suffering, along with withdrawals from a lengthy drug binge I was coming down from. I suffer with OCD also which does not help and came very close to ending my life, but I tried to keep myself as busy as possible and fight through it. About a month ago I decided to go back to college and have been very fortunate to make some good friends and even meet my current girlfriend, the anxiety has died down a lot as well and I am at the point where I can function in day to day life again.

However, I am still left with a bad case of dissociation, The worst symptom of which is not being able to feel or experience much emotion. Situations which would normally provide an emotional response such as looking at a sunset, cuddling with a girl or someone telling a funny joke don't provide an emotional response any more, I just feel numb. I know the emotions are still there underneath this but I feel disconnected from them/unable to 'access' them. If this symptom went away then I really wouldn't care about the others. 

I haven't tried any medications as of yet as I am only 3 months in and so am hoping/praying for a natural recovery, however I have tried Benzo's a few times which help immensely with my visuals but do very little for my DP/DR sadly, in fact nothing seems to help the DP/DR.

One thing I will say about my HPPD is I think it came for a reason, I was a bad drug addict for 4 years before my HPPD came along, and I can say with 100% confidence that if I didn't develop HPPD and stop using, I would be dead for sure. I didn't even admit I had a problem to myself before, but since then I have told my parents about my HPPD and my drug addiction, who have been overwhelmingly supportive despite being worried sick.

My life now consists of trying my best to perform well at college, getting out with my mates as much as I can and spending time with my girlfriend, as well as staying sober. I plan to start attending Narcotics Anonymous meetings to help with my drug problems and am trying to keep as positive as I can, which is all we can do I suppose.

Apologies this was a lengthy introduction, but it's very nice to meet you all and I look forward to speaking with you all in the near future.

God bless

-Sam