Sam93

hppd33: I wish it was that clear!

 

These two I see. Although I tend to have these moving clouds as in the bottom picture quite frequently though, especially when I calm down and look at the ceiling.

It's always sort of moving though, but the upper picture is always present, and the speed at which it "snows" is actually quite damn accurate.

This is what my snow is like too, although my snow is a bit faster than that image. My snow isn't even coloured as such either, it's like transparent snow but is very visible, hard to explain.

Haha no I'm not ready for a lobotomy just yet! But indeed the brain is a very complex thing and if it were as simple as reversing the effects of the drug then a 5ht2a antagonist would relieve all our symptoms, but of course it does not. I have more faith in the sufferers finding a cure than the professionals, not to discredit the work of the likes of dr. Abraham etc. of course but research looks bleak at best at the moment. That's why it's people like you that give me hope ODISA!

Yeah I know it needn't be caused by TLE, I just thought maybe that was the area of the brain responsible for those feelings, but hey, we don't even know the neuro chemistry or neuropathogenesis behind DP/DR either!

Kind of weird to think that a single dose of Psychedelics has done this to me though! The main thing that worries me is I took 25B-Nbome which is a research chemical and hasn't even been studied in humans, aside from its 5HT2A agonism who knows what else it's done to me. I saw an EEG scan of a brain on 25b-nbome compared to other psychedelics and the whole brain was lit up like a Christmas tree, literally strong activity in every single part, scary.

Anyway my anxieties aside, I can't wait to get my hands on this either. My HPPD is quite mild aside from the dpdr so if your theories are right about Coluracetam I should respond to it quite well in theory! We shall see. Even if one person responds to it then I guess it's worthwhile.

Ah I just assumed that if seizures and over activity in the temporal lobe could cause DP/DR type symptoms then lowering activity there could relieve symptoms. But there's no real way of lowering activity in specific brain regions that I know of so that idea was bunk anyway.

Indeed limbic stimulation would be beneficial, this is why I was considering Aniracetam too as it increase extracellular levels of dopamine and serotonin (5-HT) in the prefrontal cortex, basolateral amygdala and dorsal hippocampus of the mesocorticolimbic system. It's also a positive alllosteric modulator of the AMPA receptor (really dont know what this means). Thought a low dose of this might stack with Coluracetam possibly.

Actually can't wait to try this out, although I can't help but think while it could do wonders for the visuals it may not do much for DP/DR. I think reducing excitation in the temporal lobe and pre frontal cortex is the key to solving our DP/DR from what I've researched. Particularly the temporal lobe. Mild seizures in the temporal lobe cause extreme DP/DR.. Hmm.

Off topic - HPPD is making me want to pursue a career in Neuroscience, it's fascinating.

Hey man,

I think we've all had suicidal thoughts at one time or another dealing with this crap, but remember there are many people who have completely recovered, and even if they haven't, the long term sufferers on the board have all managed to go on to live good lives, maybe not as good as without HPPD, but good lives with successful relationships, families and educations nonetheless, this is not the end of your happiness.

The main thing is fighting it, you have to take action and not let it defeat you, YOU have hppd, it belongs to you, you do not belong to it. Try to find that motivation inside of you. What worked for me was joining a college course where I'm socialising every day and learning which can only be good for cognition.

A few months ago I was home bound, suicidal with extreme anxiety to the point where I couldn't leave the house. Now, I attend college every day, socialise and do everything a normal 21 year old guy would. I thought I'd never get any enjoyment out of life again but I've started to look forward to things and enjoy them again, and you can too.

This shit doesn't have to end you, it's just another obstacle to overcome. It is an every day struggle but people live great lives with much more debilitating conditions than ours.

Of course, there are also treatments available, whether its Klonopin, Keppra, Sinemet, Lamictal, Clonidine, SSRI's there are definitely things you can try pharmacologically. Also make sure you get some good supplements down you. I recommend a B vitamin complex, Omega 3 fish oil and magnesium as a base. There are other things you can add such as N-Acetyl Cysteine (worked wonders for me) L-Tyrosine, Alpha GPC.

On the days where it really gets the better of me I just take a Clonazepam, which gives me great relief. Just knowing there's something there that can relieve me if I ever need it is lovely.

Don't research too much into HPPD either, particularly the horror stories, just focus on getting your life back, one step at a time. This is YOUR life and you do what you need to do. Stick around on the forums too, I find it very therapeutic and calming just talking on here sometimes, we're all in this together after all!

Hi,

For those of you who are in relationships, do you feel HPPD has affected/is affecting it in a negative way at all? Does your partner know and how supportive have they been?

I've been in a relationship for a year now and due to my DP/DR which comes with some emotional disconnection, I do find it hard sometimes. Particularly connecting emotionally to my partner. I do have feelings and affection for my partner, I know they are there but due to the DP/DR I feel disconnected from those feelings, which is sometimes hard.

On the plus side, when I spend time with my partner it does take my mind off HPPD a great deal and is one of the things that keeps me going really, there has been moments where I've completely forgotten about it. My HPPD is relatively mild so I'm hoping I have a good chance at recovery, it's just the dissociation gets hard sometimes.

Not to be crude but thankfully one thing it hasn't affected is my Libido. I'm still a 21 year old male AKA lump of testosterone in that department which is good too, haha.

How about you?

I had mine go away. My initial onset was mostly static and DP/DR. I had DP/DR for a few weeks, and I was drinking a lot I was graduating high school at the time. Over time it slowly went away. It never bothered me too much, I just kinda shrugged it off and it went away after a month or two. Since then for around a year if I drank too much or too frequently I would get insane DP. I just kept telling myself it was temporary. As it usually is. I haven't had it at all for around a month. I had one day where it was really bad. The next day I woke up and felt great. Hasn't made a comeback since then. 

 

I think a lot of DP/DR is fairly mental. I've had it a few times when I was tripping too hard as well. I would just work through it. I did a lot of deep breathing exercises which helped a lot when it was really bad.

 

 

How long have you been experiencing symptoms?

Hi mate,

So have you still got the visual symptoms etc since the dpdr has subsided?

I've been experiencing symptoms of HPPD and DP/DR for 4 months now. DP/DR seems to be improving somewhat and I'm getting some emotions back which is all I care about really, the visuals don't bother me.

yea, all clear, thanks.

 

As for DP/DR... I get the floaty, out of body, nothing seems real, trippy feeling.... But i seem to still have my emotions in tact. I am particularly empathetic towards animals and nature..... although, i too don't really give a shit about some homeless guy or even some famine in Africa... I never did pre-hppd though... I had a realisation very early on in life (about 10) that there are way too many people on the planet and death is a good way to get rid (Edit -  i just read that line back and it sounds like something the press would quote if i ever went berserk, hahah)

Good good.

Yeah that's the feeling I mean. I love being out in nature but when I'm there I still get the DP/DR feeling of not being connected with my surroundings, if you know what I mean. I feel very empathetic toward animals too, more so than humans most of the time.

God knows how you've put up with it for so long mate! 

Hi there,

As Jay has said, for me things died down a lot the first 2 or 3 months until I reached my baseline. However, you may want to consider some serious lifestyle changes. Staying sober is an absolute must. Some can tolerate the occasional drink with no change in symptoms like myself but for others it makes things worse by orders of magnitude.

Stay sober, eat healthy and get in a routine of regular exercise. Also try supplementing with a B vitamin complex, fish oil and magnesium which helped for me, or check out the medication section of the forum for recommenced supplements. I'd also recommend checking the general forums, particularly the general advice and success stories section, just knowing things do get better is enough to get your life back on track.

Yea, you just need to focus on the idea of "right, only another 4 days and it's another benzo break". Luckily, the one thing hppd hasn't stripped me of is a generally optimistic outlook.

 

As for dissociation.... I get a bit mixed up with all the terms, i don't really have emotional numbing, as such, but i do have big problems communicating and interacting socially. My wife just had a cancerous mole removed and it took all my energy to even show her i cared, even though i was cut up inside. Thankfully, she just thought i was trying to stay laid back and keep her calm... She even thanked me, how fucked up is that!

Yeah, at least there's something to keep me sane, if there was no magic bullet for me to take then fuck knows what state I'd be in haha!

As for dissociation (DP/DR) its just a feeling of being disconnected from yourself and your emotions, so while I can still laugh my head off at a funny joke, the emotion behind the laugh is blunted, I'm not sure if you understand what I mean. Or another example would be if I saw, say, a homeless person on the streets, I know intellectually that I feel sorry for them but I don't feel it emotionally to a great deal. Benzos give me some emotion back though which is great, anyway I'm rambling.

Hope your wife is OK!

Vantage.cc is the UK supplier.

Cheers.

It's tempting to give Aniracetam a trial run but the 5HT2a agonism might just worsen my HPPD...

Although a quote from a report 'it also becomes easier concentrate with improved mental energy and a feeling of awareness and wakefulness' seems like it could help DP/DR

Sunifiram looks interesting too, 'Sunifiram aids in the release of acetylcholine in the cerebral cortex'

Indeed, Aniracetam does sound quite interesting too but I'm not willing to mess with my good ol' 5HT receptors any more haha.

Yeah I'd be more than happy to pay that, if there's a UK supplier as you say then I'll definitely give it a trial run.

Yep agreed with the devil bit.

Hmm as with most racetams, Aniracetam's MOA is really just a shot in the dark. From what I found, it modulates AMPA receptor, which in turn can modulate neuronal excitability. 5HT2a antagonism has been implicated to have beneficial effects for HPPD, IIRC. However, D2 and D3 antagonism don't seem like something favorable from an initial glance, but that's just speculation.

Coluracetam (sadly) has not been tested thoroughly enough to find other sites of activity. But then again, if you've done some reading on pharmacological research, 9 out of 10 times you'll read something like: Because introducing A showed B modulation, and introducing C cancelled out A, we conclude that D, E, and F are involved. Well that's a rather inadequate example, but what I meant to say was, is that pharmacology contains a fair bit of speculation and theories, and less so evidence. Thus, truly knowing the exact mechanisms of a substance, especially a new substance, is often quite difficult.

Haha maybe I just said that because of my personal troubles with comprehending such texts.

But with neurology there are so many parameters, that it's hard to pinpoint something unless you've actually started learning from scratch (as opposed to the 'community science' where you just kind of go "ohh that looks interesting, let me look into that" and then in that text you find 30 subjects you don't know shit about, then you have to learn about those to understand what you initially were trying to comprehend, and they all branch off as well until you get to own Chapter 1 of your first Biology class. I call it "backwards education"). Ohh I think I derailed and rambled a bit here.

Anyway, bottom line is that racetams are very interesting, and not much is known about them. All we can do is do our best to speculate what the outcome will be, but nothing can be certain until proven. Also, I haven't tried Aniracetam myself, only Piracetam and Levetiracetam.

However, it would seem that Coluracetam is both superior in its effects and in theory.

Hey,

Oh, I do apologise, I'm really not with it today. I meant that Aniracetam has been show to AGONISE not ANTAGONISE D2, D3 and 5HT2a receptors. My mistake! Also does something at the nACh receptors too from a glance at Wikipedia.

Quote:

Aniracetam, a cognition enhancer, has been recently found to preferentially increase extracellular levels of dopamine (DA) and serotonin (5-HT) in the prefrontal cortex (PFC), basolateral amygdala and dorsal hippocampus of the mesocorticolimbic system.

But yes, Coluracetam does sound very interesting, I'd love to get my hands on some if the pricing isn't too extreme.

I was just looking at the Taurine page on Wikipedia and noticed a few things that would seem helpful to us HPPD'ers, and couldn't find any other threads on Taurine, so have a look! 

Taurine crosses the blood–brain barrier^[23][24][25] and has been implicated in a wide array of physiological phenomena including inhibitory neurotransmission

long-term potentiation in the striatum/hippocampus (basically enhanced signal transmissions in these areas of the brain, good for improving memory etc)

calcium homeostasis (regulation of calcium channels from what I understand?)

protection against glutamate excitotoxicity (some believe HPPD is a form of excitotoxicity)

prevention of epileptic seizures (HPPD shows pre-seizure activity)

taurine produces an anxiolytic effect and may act as a modulator or antianxiety agent in the central nervous system by activating the glycine receptor

There seems to be some potentially good benefits for us HPPDers there. Anyone tried it?

Thanks.

EDIT: Whoops, I didn't realise I posted this in the symptoms forum, my cognition is not at it's best today, could this pleased be moved to the medications forum? Sorry about that.

Whoops, double posted and I'm not sure how to delete it. :S

Hey mate,

Yeah it's me haha! Your results from tDCS do sound great, however as it was only around 15 minutes of relief then can we assume that this couldn't be used as a sustainable treatment? Not to take anything away from your results of course. 

I'm trying to do some research on whether DP/DR could be considered a seperate issue to HPPD or it's pretty much tied in with it, as I've not read any stories of people's DP/DR going away on the forums. It is my opinion that it is not a result of the visuals at all but tied in with the whole HPPD symptomatology. 

It's interesting that people suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy experience DP/DR, so maybe overactivity in the temporal lobe could be partly to blame? Other forms of epilepsy also cause DP/DR type symptoms to a lesser extent, and also migraines, and of course the co-morbidity of anxiety disorders, so DP/DR symptoms are obviously due to disinhibiton/excitation/over-activity in areas of the brain. It is interesting that K-Opioid antagonists like Naloxone and Naltrexone seem to migitate DP/DR somewhat though, I wonder what the opioid system would have to do with DP/DR?

As Dr. Abraham has stated, when you have the 'pre-seizure' activity shown in us HPPD'ers, localised brain regions also start beating in the same rhythm, and so it's obviously much more complex than just disinhibition of the visual cortex, as shown in qEEG's it is the whole cerebral cortex that shows dis inhibition. I know that's probably nothing you didn't already know, I'm just rambling.

Any none-hppders fancy donating me a new cerebral cortex? 

Sorry for the long post, I tend to go off track! 

Hmm the trails and tracers, as far as I've read, were only from one guy using it in combination with Amphetamines. Amphetamines are excitatory so that probably overloaded something. I have no clue really, I just know Amphetamines are bunk, and I'm not surprised this happened. Color enhancement needn't necessarily indicate excitation I would think? Rather the opposite I'd say: Improvement of signal-to-noise ratio by inhibition could be the cause for this. No clue.. but I know there are some studies on contrast perception etc. with visual cortex excitability correlations, if you feel like confirming it.

I'd say the Amphetamine combo was an isolated incident.. No one else reports visual distortions from Coluracetam. Actually, there's a guy who reports less visual distortions in combination with (what I later found out to be) 4-HO-MET, which I find pretty indicative of its therapeutic potential.

I think it's highly unlikely to increase severity of symptoms, all things considered. But even in the event that it does, we'll learn something new and valuable.

Ohh, and here's a wiki quote from Hemicholinium-3 (HACU blocker.. basically the opposite of Coluracetam):

 

Hmm, I'm not going to derive any conclusions out of that, but you can make of it what you will.

Ah yes, amphetamines are the devil so I guess we can write that experience off.

The only reason I mentioned the colour enhancement is that another racetam (Aniracetam) has similar visual effects from what I've read from reports (sharper edges, colour enhancement, the 'HD Vision' effect mentioned in Coluracetam reports.

A few quotes from Aniracetam reports:

'Aniracetam on its own causes a huge increase in visual accuracy, 3d and color perception, simultaneous geometric processing capabilities, auditive loudness and clarity

'With Aniracetam, many users experience extremely enhanced visual and hearing processing. 

The only reason I mention aniracetam is that it's effects seem remarkably similar to Coluracetam, with a noticable anxiolytic action, and after some reading I notice aniraceam has an antagonistic effect at D2, D3 and 5HT2a receptors. 5HT2a receptors could definitely cause colour enhancement and the dopamergenic antagonism could account for some of the visual sharpness etc, so I wonder if Coluracetam has any effect at these receptors also? Although they don't look too structurally similar.

Anyway, sorry to go off topic a bit! 

I don't get any added anxiety, but having 3 days with less anxiety maybe focuses the "normal" anxiety on Tuesday.... By the afternoon though, i'm in my normal mindset. I think a heavy session at the gym helps.

 

Yea, i dropped to 1.5mg as i don't get so tired as when i was on 2mg... I was just sleeping through Sunday, and that is no way to live. I find, with 1.5mg, i can have a mild coffee too, and stay awake without anxiety.

 

Yea, having benzos around is keeping me sane, for sure. That is why i'm desperately trying to treat them with respect, so that i can have this magic bullet for the rest of my life (or until a proper cure comes out!)

That sounds good, I think I'll try a weekend routine like yours and see how I go, the only thing I'm struggling with at the minute is after a couple of days on Benzo's, when I wake up Monday morning it's the psychological mindset of 'oh, I've got a week of this again' but I'm sure coping mechanisms improve with time.

Can I ask if you still have dissociation/if you had it in the first place? Particularly emotional numbing? This is the thing I struggle with the most as being in a relationship it's quite hard not being able to feel much towards my girlfriend. 

Cheers Jay.

Hi all,

Yeah, as the title states, has anyone had their DP/DR go away even if the visuals and other symptoms have not? I'm not sure if the dissociation can be thought of as a seperate problem or it is a problem resulting from our HPPD neurochemistry gone wrong.

I do know that it is often a co-morbid symptom of anxiety, but I suffer very little with anxiety and yet I still have strong DP/DR. Have any of the long term sufferers had the dissociation go away, and been able to feel emotion again etc? 

Many thanks.

I tend to go something like this:

 

Saturday - 1mg

Sunday - 1.5mg

Monday - 0.5mg

 

Nothing for the rest of the week. (Some weeks i just have the Sunday dose)

 

If I go on vacation, i'll happily take 1.5mg everyday for 2-3 weeks.

 

The key to all this (for me) is that i have 7 days completely free of benzos every month or so, and if i've had a vacation... I'll take 2 weeks off benzos.

 

I've lived like this for 4 years now and see no real tolerance or addiction. The only thing i do notice is that if i have 2 weeks on 1.5mg, then go 2 weeks off.... I don't sleep very well for the 1st week or so.

Cheers Jay,

Do you notice any rebound anxiety or any other ill effects the day after your 3 days on Kpin at all? I noticed reading your posts from a while back that you said 2mg gave you a 70% reduction in visuals, and I see that you've dropped that down to 1.5mg, was there any reason for that? Not to be a nosey bugger, I only ask because 2mg leaves me a bit spaced to the point people notice I'm on something, and I've never tried a 1.5mg dose.

The main thing for me is that it mitigates the dissociation somewhat, and I've had fairly normal days since 'contracting' hppd, which keeps me sane in a way, haha.

Hey Sam,

yeah here's what I threw together (mostly anecdotes of users though, many of which noticing moderate to extreme visual enhancement).

Check here and especially here for why Coluracetam is most likely very awesome for HPPD. Let me grab my pharmacology book...

In short:

Coluracetam is a High-Affinity Choline Uptake (HACU) enhancer.

 

From "Principles of Pharmacology, 3rd Edition". I have no clue if this is copyright infringement or whatever, but I figured it'd be fine 'cause you can find the same text over at Google eBooks.

On a side note: Acetyl CoA synthesis occurs within the mitochondria, as such mitochondrial supporting supplements might synergize with Coluracetam.

 

So basically Coluracetam enhances the biosynthesis of ACh, causing an increase in ACh levels. As the above links will show you; ACh suppresses the spread of excitation in the visual cortex. 'Nuff said, right?

Ohh and apart from the visual benefits there's a number of other very interesting properties and effects, like excitotoxicity mitigation, anxiolysis, anti-depression, nootropic etc. that may be very beneficial to the common co-morbid symptoms of HPPD. You can read all about the experiences of people in the first link I provided.

Lastly (this is a rather crude theory), HPPD seems eerily similar to Acute Anti-Cholinergic Syndrome, but then in a chronic way. If anti-cholinergics can cause HPPD-like symptoms, then there's a good chance than pro-cholinergics will do the opposite.

Hmm I thought I had more to say about this, but my thoughts drifted. Anyway, there's sufficient information to indicate that Coluracetam has a very good chance at helping in HPPD.

Hey,

That does sound extremely interesting. I'm curious to know, if Coluracetam inhibits excitation in the visual cortex then why should it be that some of the effects reported are colour enhancement, trails and tracers etc, which would suggest excitation rather than inhibition? Would this not be bad for us HPPDers and increase the severity of our trails etc? From the reports I've read it seems like a mild psychedelic on it's own.

It does seem that it could be quite helpful for DP/DR too. The Racetams are such fascinating compounds.

Hmm it's hard to compare. Phenibut helped me in social settings and to relax when alone, whereas benzo's help me to chill out when alone but they don't help in social settings for me. If anything I'd say somewhere in between Diazepam or Oxazepam and Alcohol. The only other benzo I've tried was Prazepam, and I didn't like it at all, and it's nothing like Phenibut.

What helps to get a prescription:

1. Do your research and print out relevant papers (have a look over at the Downloads section)
2. If you're having issues with memory/anxiety, write down sound arguments (for example: Keppra is essentially harmless) and bring your notes with you
3. Get an official diagnosis
4. Refuse to take "no" for an answer
5. Learn how to recognize incompetence in a doctor, and see a different doctor until you find one who is both competent and willing to help

That's what helped me at least.

AFAIK Keppra is more sustainable and safer than Sinemet, which is why I preferred it over Sinemet (and the doctors will too).

I wouldn't know if HPPD is GABA-B receptor specific (haven't read anything that would indicate that). Phenibut helped with anxiety and DP/DR, but it didn't do much for visuals. Actually sometimes it made them worse, but the benefits outweighed that. I prefer Kava Kava over Phenibut though (less sedation and more clarity, also basically harmless stuff as opposed to Phenibut), but it's contraindicated with Keppra so I didn't buy more when I ran out.

Anyway just be persistent and patient (yeah the latter can be tricky, I know), and you'll get what you need.

Ok, thank you for the advice. I have quite a good relationship with my GP as I've seen him for years and he has generally been quite liberal with prescriptions, so we shall see. As far as Kava Kava goes I believe that is illegal in my country as far as I'm aware.

Cheers.

Whilst you'll do well to ever get Sinemet prescribed (and I'm not even sure that's a sustainable treatment), Keppra is not as difficult to get hold of here in the UK. My GP prescribed it to me, and my previous one before my current GP offered to prescribe it to me but at the time I wanted to be med free. I know others here in the UK have been prescribed it as well. But you can't just say, "can I try Keppra?' You have present information to your doctor in a way so that they can trust that you know what you're talking about.

Ah I see, I'll have to inquire about that and see if my GP would be willing to give it a go. Can I ask if Keppra worked for you at all?

Yeah it's basically a matter of being strict, like Syntheso said. I have no experience with Clonazepam, but I used to use Phenibut (basically an OTC benzo) for my "day off". Usually I'd limit this to every Sunday. Sometimes I did 2 days in a row or a higher dose, but I quickly learned that that just made things worse and tolerance would build, accompanied by a "hangover". The first time was the best, after that it never really did the trick as good.

Eventually I just threw the stuff out though, cause my shrink was bitching about it and actually proposed that Phenibut was causing my HPPD. Post-Freudian retards.. sigh. Nowadays I just keep an Oxazepam in my wallet might I ever find I need it, but I haven't felt the need for it despite the seeming temptation. I guess it's just knowing that I have one there in case I would go totally ape-shit, is reassuring by itself.

So I'd suggest you kind of keep it as a last resort really, or limit use as much as possible.

Are you looking into other (more sustainable) treatment options in the meantime?

Cheers.

Hi there, thanks for your reply.

I like your idea of having one in your wallet, I have a bottle of 100 Klono currently and have been taking them on the days I've been struggling to cope, which is usually sundays where I have absolutely nothing to do all day, if I'm not with my girlfriend that is.

As far as more sustainable treatments go, I've just been looking into private neuros/specialists in the UK. I'd like to try Sinemet or Keppra but I think it's going to be a big challenge attempting to get those prescribed in the UK. The neuro that prescribed me Klono flat out refused to even give me a trial run on Keppra or Sinemet. 

EDIT: I was looking into Phenibut myself, how does it compare to benzos as far as relief from HPPD goes? I would've thought that it would be more beneficial as benzos are typically GABA-a agonists while Phenibut (as far as I'm aware) is a GABA-b agonist, and in HPPD it seems to be GABA-b dis inhibition that is the problem, although I could be completely wrong on that one.

Thanks.

Hey guys,

I know of Coluracetam but could anyone explain to me why this should be helpful to us HPPD'ers? I have a good understanding of pharmacology/neurochemistry but Coluracetam isn't something I've looked into or been able to find much information on.

Cheers.