Bit of an idea for possible CURE. Has some weight to it.

[Fawkinchit]

Everything in our universe is quite simple, Push/pull concept, up down black white red blue north pole south pole day night sun black hole etc etc etc... well with our receptors its the same concept, agonist inverse agonist, I was thinking that maybe these very potent agonist of the 5ht2a receptors cause such an extreme push that things become out of balance, just like if you decreased suns gravity the earth would fall away, maybe we can utilize inverse 5ht2a agonists to accomplish the rebalancing of our receptors. unfortunately these dont exist that are on the market today, only in clinical trials, for the treatment of insomnia. Anyone have any ideas?

 

Update: Full documentation of this disease can be found on page 24 post #478

[Fawkinchit]

asdf

[mgrade]

Here's my take: what you really want is serotonin to bind with these receptors, not some other chemical to take its place. Yeah you have agonists but a lot of them are hallucinogens.....lol........RC chemicals, dmt, lsd, mescaline etc. ...........as of right now the best things are small amounts of benzos and re-uptake inhibitors (dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, etc.) which leaves more neurotransmitter jumping around the cleft and binding.

[Fawkinchit]

Here's my take: what you really want is serotonin to bind with these receptors, not some other chemical to take its place. Yeah you have agonists but a lot of them are hallucinogens.....lol........RC chemicals, dmt, lsd, mescaline etc. ...........as of right now the best things are small amounts of benzos and re-uptake inhibitors (dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, etc.) which leaves more neurotransmitter jumping around the cleft and binding.

True, but im not sure what youre getting at. 

[Guest]

I don't know what to think anymore.

15 years of HPPD and it's clear nobody cares as nobody is researching it at all.

[mgrade]

i think most of these reuptake meds don't take the place of serotonin on these receptors. ......You were saying how things are very black-and-white .........in some ways i see what you are saying but......i think you can look at it in this way: while your computer works on binary code (1's and 0's <on and off>), there are many different combinations (1s and 0s) that convey a message. In other words there are chemicals that are antagonist, agonists, partial agonists, inverse agonists, selective antagonists, etc. some chemicals don't inhibit at small doses but certainly do inhibit at high doses. .........We are messed up because we have experienced "neural injury". It is taking a long time to re-regulate the normal, regular, healthy neurochemical actions and concentrations. We have also affected the HPA axis, limbic system, and the memory centers. We have activated trauma-pathways. .........I think the real way to treat this is some where between the antipsychotics and the hallucinogens (where/ ....i am not necessarily sure). ...........I have been looking at ACTH and cortisol and how it effects anxiety/HPPD.......I am not a scientist so your guess is as good as mine.

(also ----- i have this post, check it out http://hppdonline.com/index.php?/topic/1191-pituitary-acth-adrenal-cortex-cortisol-and-cathinone/ )

[2muchmandy]

I appreciate your enthusiams. what do hallucinogens effect? I agree that maybe wev cooked the receptora and need to up the production or synthesize something to take its place

[cs1234]

has anyone ever heard of cyclobenzaprine or cyproheptadine?

cyproheptadine is an anthistamine and on the wikipedia page for it, it says:

"Cyproheptadine is known to be an antagonist (or inverse agonist depending on the site in question) of the following receptors, listed in order of potencyfrom greatest to least (K_i):

• H₁ (~0.05 nM)^[20] > 5-HT_2A (~2 nM)^[21] ≈ 5-HT_2B (~1.5 nM)^[22] ≈ 5-HT_2C (~2 nM)^[22] > mACh (M₁-M₅; ~7-12 nM)^[23] ≈ D₃ (~8 nM)^[24]"
  

so it's a 5-HT2a antagonist (or inverse agonist, whatever you wanna call it). i wonder if it'll greatly reduce symptoms or something. I also mentioned cyclobenzaprine because apparently it has a very similar structure to cycloheptadine (i also got that from wikipedia)

so has anybody tried these? it might be worth a shot

[mgrade]

Most of the hallucinogens effect this receptor. They bind to it. Normally serotonin is supposed to bind to it. When the drugs take the place of the serotonin, serotonin production is turned off. I know also that with LSD that there is an actual change in the pH of the synapses (like Ca2+/- to K+......or something like that). The brain is like the innards of a CD player: if the wires and the insulation and the signal are mangled , it usually won't work as well.

[2muchmandy]

Ok so has anyone tried to take dopamine aaand seratonin at the same time. Would there be a way to get seratonin binding again

[2muchmandy]

That could also mean because most hppdrrs have past anxiety or depression issies ( ie naturally low seratonin ) the seratonin receptors could be turned off totally.

[cs1234]

wait, did our serotonin receptors get permanently worse or better? My guess would be that they got permanently worse, in which case the 5-ht2a antagonist would help. i always got the impression that more serotonin = worse HPPD (ie: ssris making hppd worse)

[2muchmandy]

Thats what I thought but maybe if dopamine was increased aswell

[2muchmandy]

Have any of u guys, visual in particular thought about applying for the grant? I would fully support that movement

[mgrade]

its a fine line. the idea is to be in balance. if you had no serotonin, you'd be really messed up. Seroquel, Rispirdol, Zyprexa, Abilify, these are some of the antagonists that you are talking about. They would probably help in extremely low dosages (in fact i know i have been on them when w/ HPPD). I am not on them now. But they have been shown not to be helpful with HPPD, generally. I kinda really dislike those drugs .............im not sure about dopamine, one of the main DRIs seems to be cocaine. I know it was used for many of years...........hmmmm.... ...i don't know

[2muchmandy]

Dri? U really got be simple with me. Im very much retarded with all this. Wanna speak about bmw engines? Im gold. medical terms? Im not good atal. I used to be on prozac and it made me feel shiiit. Also hearing it worsens visuals. Maybe tiny amounts of ssris and more dopamine?. Also heard cocaine doesnt effect hppd

[mgrade]

sorry......since this last hppd shit, ive been headlong into trying to find the right chemical for treating,.........its a dopemine reuptake inhibitor-----not that i 100% understand it either.... ..........................dude ...its not easy stuff----brain stuff/study, i barely know shit---im confused myself.........prozac i dont know....i kinda got good results from escitalopram. get on like 5-10 mgs. worth a shot. cause if you aint doing good .....talk to your doc. about it. it take like a few weeks til you see some results, it is subtle but positive. im not pushing drugs but i am on it and it is not one of the most common drugs because it sux. See what da doc thinks.

also--you should have a little bit of lorazepam just in case for panic attacks too----i think.

[Guest]

Nobody applied for the grant in 2011 and 2012...

WTF?'

[mgrade]

Who's got a Phd.? ........i think thats a prerequisite.........i barely got my associates ....lol.......we need to find the leader, you know

[Fawkinchit]

asdf

[Fawkinchit]

has anyone ever heard of cyclobenzaprine or cyproheptadine?

cyproheptadine is an anthistamine and on the wikipedia page for it, it says:

"Cyproheptadine is known to be an antagonist (or inverse agonist depending on the site in question) of the following receptors, listed in order of potencyfrom greatest to least (K_i):

• H₁ (~0.05 nM)^[20] > 5-HT_2A (~2 nM)^[21] ≈ 5-HT_2B (~1.5 nM)^[22] ≈ 5-HT_2C (~2 nM)^[22] > mACh (M₁-M₅; ~7-12 nM)^[23] ≈ D₃ (~8 nM)^[24]"

so it's a 5-HT2a antagonist (or inverse agonist, whatever you wanna call it). i wonder if it'll greatly reduce symptoms or something. I also mentioned cyclobenzaprine because apparently it has a very similar structure to cycloheptadine (i also got that from wikipedia)


so has anybody tried these? it might be worth a shot

asdf

[mgrade]

i looked up the drug and it could definitely be promising. (**antihistamine: sketchy though) I like the "black/white" ideas, cause it's kinda how i think too, but i've had to change the way i look at things a bit because there are so many receptors and some chemicals effect one receptor one way and effect another receptor another way, and there can actually be big differences in actions between 2 analogues.

i think one point i was trying to make is that at very low doses LSD potentiates serotonin actions but at "regular" and large doses block serotonin action. I think the real question is that now that the drugs are long out of our systems what is actually going on at the neuronal/synaptic level? The one main idea is that there is neuro-chemical depletion. Tell me what you think is happening.

[Fawkinchit]

i looked up the drug and it could definitely be promising. I like the "black/white" ideas, cause it's kinda how i think too, but i've had to change the way i look at things a bit because there are so many receptors and some chemicals effect one receptor one way and effect another receptor another way, and there can actually be big differences in actions between 2 analogues.








asdf

[mgrade]

You see the idea of reuptake is on a presynaptic side. If you inhibit that action, you get more serotonin in the synapse that will hang around and bind themselves post-synaptically.

[Fawkinchit]

You see the idea of reuptake is on a presynaptic side. If you inhibit that action, you get more serotonin in the synapse that will hang around and bind themselves post-synaptically.

asdf