Nefiracetam - anyone tried it?

[Syntheso]

Has anyone tried it? I'm interested because it potentiates the NMDAR's.

Also has neuroprotective and anticonvulsant effects; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16122714

[Syntheso]

Okay, I have tried it.. pasting my writing from the other thread about why I wanted to try it due to the more specific title of this thread.
;

For the last three days I have been taking Nefiracetam orally at doses ranging from 150-400mg TID. I have stopped taking magnesium because that would dampen, if not block its effect on the NMDA receptor that I am interested in. In short; thus far I have been feeling very good.

Nefiracetam is a partial NMDA partial agonist, particularly at the glycine site. It is said to potentiate the NMDA receptor. It also has cholinergic mechanisms and is a GABA-A agonist amongst other actions.

The first time I dosed, at 150mg, shortly after I experienced brain fog to the point I was drifting in and out of consciousness, like absence seizures. I have experienced this before many times with brain fog. This was accompanied by freaky sensations which I cannot quite explain.. it was like having presences around me which would sharply appear and leave my consciousness. It is how I would imagine schizophrenia to feel like, in a very mild way. I had to sleep for a couple of hours to resolve this.

I have experienced this sort of thing before; I think more or less exclusively when very fatigued or having consumed alcohol whilst trying to sleep. It could have been a coincidence that this happened after ingesting Nefiracetam - but I doubt it. It could be due to its GABA action (I say this because I have experienced similarly whilst drinking alcohol). I would like to think, given my theory, that some sort of emotional processing was going on, but perhaps I am being idealistic/biased.

Nonetheless, since this first dose, I have continued dosing TID and not experienced those sensations or any brain fog since. I have been feeling, as I said in short, very good. The mildest head tension; other than that, more or less like a normal, if not a more than normally motivated, person. Visuals seem to have not changed.

One thing that occurs to me; Nefiracetam could be particularly useful a) because of its GABA action, which we know is very useful in HPPD   simultaneously it is potentiating the NMDA receptor. These two things alongside each other are quite interesting.. maybe it would make things quite a bit worse if there was no GABA action to dampen the effect of glutamate release (which presumably Nefiracetam is doing)?

The main point is that I have been dosing something that agonises the NMDA receptor and have not experienced anything negative except for my induction dose. This indicates potential for my theory, but it is still early days. I will keep updating. I am extremely confident that my experience so far suggests huge potential for d-cyclonserine and glyx-13. I would love to try them but I can't get hold of them. If anyone in London fancies meeting up for a drink, I would be more than happy to give you some of my Nefiracetam so we have another case to trial. That is, if you agree with my idea!

I would also like to personally discourage use of NMDA antagonists... fair enough if they work for you, I can understand why you would take anything that mitigated the awful symptoms we experience, but I am sure there are better ways of overcoming this condition. The more and more I read about the NMDA receptor I just don't seem why on earth you would want to block it. This is just my opinion.

[brendan]

thanks for the offer - i'm up for a trial (and a pint.)

[Syntheso]

thanks for the offer - i'm up for a trial (and a pint.)

aye!

On dosing..

Definitely better to do smaller doses throughout the day (150-200/250mg). I have found that I can do a larger dose (e.g 400mg) and still have very successful results, but I don't feel more than 150mg is needed really. There appears to be no substantial added benefit. Also, I wouldn't recommend taking a large dose if you have been up for a few hours and not dosed. For example, I dosed in the evening yesterday @ 400mg without having done any in the day (I didn't dose because I had been feeling well all day). The larger dose gave me some mild brain fog for a bit, but this passed shortly and I felt good again.

[onedayillsailagain]

I've done a quick search on Nefiracetam experiences. This one really looks like a shot in the dark based off of user reports. On the one hand there are reports of it feeling physically toxic, demotivating, anxiogenic, cognitively&emotionally blunting, loss of libido, etc. On the other there are people reporting it's anxiolytic, nootropic, motivating, mood-enhancing, improves bodily awareness, helps in meditation, and even mitigating schizophrenic symptoms.

Other pros are that it generally seems to have an instant effect, the effects are pronounced/noticeable, and benefits are sustained with prolonged usage. Cons.. GABAergic agonist it would appear. May require cycling on/off.

On paper however, it seems to hold great potential in general, and well worth the shot.
I'm still up for giving this a spin, and I'll look in to buying it. Syntheso, would you mind mentioning your source?

Lastly.. wonder how this would combine with Coluracetam. I'll try that myself when I do try the Nefi.

[Syntheso]

I've done a quick search on Nefiracetam experiences. This one really looks like a shot in the dark based off of user reports. On the one hand there are reports of it feeling physically toxic, demotivating, anxiogenic, cognitively&emotionally blunting, loss of libido, etc. On the other there are people reporting it's anxiolytic, nootropic, motivating, mood-enhancing, improves bodily awareness, helps in meditation, and even mitigating schizophrenic symptoms.

Other pros are that it generally seems to have an instant effect, the effects are pronounced/noticeable, and benefits are sustained with prolonged usage. Cons.. GABAergic agonist it would appear. May require cycling on/off.

On paper however, it seems to hold great potential in general, and well worth the shot.

I'm still up for giving this a spin, and I'll look in to buying it. Syntheso, would you mind mentioning your source?

Lastly.. wonder how this would combine with Coluracetam. I'll try that myself when I do try the Nefi.

Yeah that was the impression I got, a real variety of reports. To update my point before.. it seems to me that the 'first' dose after a while (more than 5-6 hours), whilst it does keep more more focused and is anxiolytic.. it tends to bring about some brain fog, hence why some people might be put off by it. However, it does not compare to that I have experienced from HPPD, so doesn't bother me too much. It seems that if I dose TID, starting first thing and spreading the doses equally across the day, that the brain fog issue is resolved, but give me some more time to confirm that (I wasn't so strict dosing today + yesterday).

Yes you are right about the GABA agonism, ScienceGuy did a thread on that at longecity, but I am not too worried, for now at least. Actually, I meant to ask you if you could post in that thread asking how long he might suggest?

I got my Nefi from New Star Nootropics. Yeah I'm interested in trying that too. Going to wait a bit longer to see the effects of Nefi soley.

Odisa, I was also wondering if you had any suggestions to add something to my stack for head tension.. ? I would feel more or less completely normal. 

Daily I take the following;

Nefiracetam 150-400mg TID.

Morning; 500mg Bacopa Monneiri, Vit C, B, D. Omega 3 + 6 fish oils.

Evening; 1mg Guanfacine, 1,000mg Bacopa Monneiri. 

[onedayillsailagain]

Interesting note on the brainfog. Guess it's a rather wide term though.. Could be anywhere from slightly out of it to totally dazed out in to space. As you put it, it doesn't seem to be too much of an issue, relative to what already is experienced with HPPD. Good to know it seems to lift with TID dosage.

Yeah I can see what I can find out.. I suspect he'll just suggest cycling off on the weekends though.. I suppose it's a matter of binding affinity as well, so perhaps @StateOfRegret can help out with that one?

NSN seems like a genuinely proper company, and I'd prefer to buy from them, however the shipping rates are a bit off-putting, though I haven't really looked in to that. I'm considering ordering from a EU supplier, or maybe even just a sample from a Dutch company (the latter option would let me try it as soon as Friday). Of course ordering from NSN would be a tad more useful w.r.t. data, but I'm not feeling particularly meticulous about it to be honest (plus.. impatience, hehe).

Anyway: as for head tension/pressure I suggest playing around with choline intake, as it is a known symptom of cholinergics (though I don't remember whether it was hypo- or hypercholinergia). Idk whether you eat eggs etc, but you could try cutting all dietary intake of choline one day, and supplementing with extra choline another, and see if that makes a difference.. Maybe play with ALCAR if you happen to have it, though I wouldn't go out of your way to buy it. Also, B-vitamins usually have added choline; just a reminder. Other than that I can't really think of anything at this moment.. perhaps tomorrow I might think of something. It seems to be a common affliction with racetams.. Two other things come to mind: hydration and possibly cerebrovasodilators, though of course proceed with caution with the latter considering the concurrent use of Guanfacine.

Also looking forward to any elaboration of your experience; no pressure though

[Syntheso]

Interesting note on the brainfog. Guess it's a rather wide term though.. Could be anywhere from slightly out of it to totally dazed out in to space. As you put it, it doesn't seem to be too much of an issue, relative to what already is experienced with HPPD. Good to know it seems to lift with TID dosage.

Yeah I can see what I can find out.. I suspect he'll just suggest cycling off on the weekends though.. I suppose it's a matter of binding affinity as well, so perhaps @StateOfRegret can help out with that one?

NSN seems like a genuinely proper company, and I'd prefer to buy from them, however the shipping rates are a bit off-putting, though I haven't really looked in to that. I'm considering ordering from a EU supplier, or maybe even just a sample from a Dutch company (the latter option would let me try it as soon as Friday). Of course ordering from NSN would be a tad more useful w.r.t. data, but I'm not feeling particularly meticulous about it to be honest (plus.. impatience, hehe).

Anyway: as for head tension/pressure I suggest playing around with choline intake, as it is a known symptom of cholinergics (though I don't remember whether it was hypo- or hypercholinergia). Idk whether you eat eggs etc, but you could try cutting all dietary intake of choline one day, and supplementing with extra choline another, and see if that makes a difference.. Maybe play with ALCAR if you happen to have it, though I wouldn't go out of your way to buy it. Also, B-vitamins usually have added choline; just a reminder. Other than that I can't really think of anything at this moment.. perhaps tomorrow I might think of something. It seems to be a common affliction with racetams.. Two other things come to mind: hydration and possibly cerebrovasodilators, though of course proceed with caution with the latter considering the concurrent use of Guanfacine.

Also looking forward to any elaboration of your experience; no pressure though

Cheers man.

Yeah they're cool. Product came in one of those proper UV jars and was packaged very professionally (lovely gold enveloped compliments card.. if you're into that  )

I don't remember shipping being that expensive for me.

I eat quite a lot of eggs... funny you mentioned choline intake, I just posted in the other thread about that. Supping Choline Bitartrate last night helped when I felt weird after taking Nefi + Colu. Yeah I do have some ALCAR, I'm not quite sure in what respect this would help? I keep pretty well hydrated. I've been getting quite a bit of heartburn recently from the intake of my stack, trying to keep everything moving smoothly. I haven't heard of cerebrovasodilators - will look into it.

Me too - I will keep it up

[onedayillsailagain]

Looks nice!
ALCAR would be transformed to Acetyl-CoA, which is the other building block of ACh, so it should have effect in some regard, however what exactly I don't know.
I've ordered a 2g sample from a Dutch company, which should've been here yesterday... I think it'll be here by Tuesday at the latest.
In the meantime I've been a bit worried about the schizophrenia-like experience you describe. Doesn't sound too bad, yet I had a mild semi/prepsychotic episode yesterday (yeah I'm never doing blow again), and one psychosis a year is more than enough for me.. I might have to give it a week or two before I try it, just be safe&let my body recover (still feeling a little out of whack).
Any updates?

EDIT: just received my sample.
EDIT 2: Do you dose sublingually or simply swallowed? I'm just assuming the latter for now.

[Syntheso]

Looks nice!

ALCAR would be transformed to Acetyl-CoA, which is the other building block of ACh, so it should have effect in some regard, however what exactly I don't know.

I've ordered a 2g sample from a Dutch company, which should've been here yesterday... I think it'll be here by Tuesday at the latest.

In the meantime I've been a bit worried about the schizophrenia-like experience you describe. Doesn't sound too bad, yet I had a mild semi/prepsychotic episode yesterday (yeah I'm never doing blow again), and one psychosis a year is more than enough for me.. I might have to give it a week or two before I try it, just be safe&let my body recover (still feeling a little out of whack).

Any updates?

EDIT: just received my sample.

EDIT 2: Do you dose sublingually or simply swallowed? I'm just assuming the latter for now.

Cool, small doses of Choline Bitartrate with it seem to help, I haven't done it long enough to work out the optimal dose. I had an off day yesterday because it was my birthday and doing stuff. Nothing to add really.

Yeah perhaps wait till you've recovered a bit. I swallow it chased with milk (it is fat soluble).

[brendan]

choline bitartrate had no effect on my head pressure or any other symptom.  Alcar made me depressed.

[Syntheso]

choline bitartrate had no effect on my head pressure or any other symptom.  Alcar made me depressed.

Choline bitartrate would only be of use, for our purposes anyway, if you were taking something to up your acetylcholine. Think of it as the fuel of  acetylcholine, which is the brain chemical that Odisa has proposed as upping to alleviate our symptoms. And to nick what Odisa wrote above ALCAR would be transformed to Acetyl-CoA, which is the other building block of ACh (acetylcholine). There are people that claim to get nootropic benefits from taking ALCAR alone. I can't say it has worked for me. Anyway, to be clear, my taking of choline bitartrate was with regards to my Nefiracetam intake, due to it's cholinergic mechanism. I was seeing if my head pressure could be resolved by increasing the amount of choline to be used as ACh fuel.

[onedayillsailagain]

Well put Synth. I doubt Ch Bitartrate will actually do anything by itself. Other sources of choline, like CDP-choline or Alpha GPC, I'm not so sure of. CDP-choline apparently upregulates DA receptors.

Anyway. I capped 100mg exactly one hour ago and took it with milk. Not sure if I'm noticing anything. Perhaps anxiolysis if anything. Nothing adverse so far.
I'll take another 100mg tonight. Tomorrow I'll do 100mg TID. If no results, I'll up to 150mg TID. Haven't exactly fully recovered from last week, so that may be playing a part as well.

[Syntheso]

Well put Synth. I doubt Ch Bitartrate will actually do anything by itself. Other sources of choline, like CDP-choline or Alpha GPC, I'm not so sure of. CDP-choline apparently upregulates DA receptors.

Anyway. I capped 100mg exactly one hour ago and took it with milk. Not sure if I'm noticing anything. Perhaps anxiolysis if anything. Nothing adverse so far.

I'll take another 100mg tonight. Tomorrow I'll do 100mg TID. If no results, I'll up to 150mg TID. Haven't exactly fully recovered from last week, so that may be playing a part as well.

Excellent. I am glad if at very least it does not cause any adverse effects so the idea that NMDA agonism = negative can be dispelled.

[onedayillsailagain]

Yes that would be nice. 

As for yesterday's experience: I had instances with what one would clinically call "skin conductance", but I'll just call it goose bumps, when listening to music. Also, in general I felt more emotion. However, after the second dose, I started noticing pretty severe brainfog, which worsened as time passed. Also, some (recurrence of) anxiety. I had a glass of wine, smoked a bowl of Passiflora, put on a meditation track, and fell asleep. My sleep was pretty great though, and I remember actually not thinking about the things that have been bothering me for quite some time. For just a moment, I forgot I had HPPD and all associated nastiness.

As for today: I woke up feeling surprisingly clearheaded. Of course, this is quite the relative thing; it didn't have me singing, but I was in a decent mood and felt fine. Took 110mg this morning. Had a bout of brainfog. Not sure if it's still here, but apparently I'm quite able to hold a conversation. Not particularly anxious at the moment, yet I don't feel cognitively on top. I'll stick to aforementioned plans of dosing today, and am hoping the brainfog is a transient thing which will dissipate over time.

Having gone through the literature on Nefi a bit, I've decided to stick with it for as long as my supply lasts (which should be around 9 more days). Apparently after 7 days, effects should be more pronounced. I'll update again if anything noteworthy/significant happens, and otherwise when my supply finishes.

[Syntheso]

Any updates Odisa?

Nefiracetam still continues to do good work for me. I have been consistently running on very good form since taking it. Even, after a silly moment last week doing a large amount of Ketamine, my symptoms becoming far worse afterwards and me quite 'out of it' (also remember Ketamine is an NMDA antagonist) in the days after, I was restored back to my good self, I believe, by Nefiracetam.

I have just tried Nefiracetam with NAC, knowing that there could well be a contraindication but also hoping they could work synergistically with their mechanism on the NMDA receptor. I took both about an hour ago, 150mg Nefi, 1g NAC. I have some strange head tension currently, suggesting that these perhaps don't go so well together, even though they work well on their own and both with action on the NMDAR. But I will confirm that later on.

So yeah, for me, unless somehow things get worse, I'm pretty much sorted. No effect on visuals as far as I can tell, but I feel fine and can finally spend hours practicing. Add in a Modafinil (plus the rest of my stack, mentioned elsewhere) and I can do what I want when I want.

[onedayillsailagain]

Yeah.. After my last update I used Nefi once more. Was feeling relatively better, and got offered cocaine again. I should've known, haha. Well I did, really. Feeling straight back to out of whack again. Stupid on my part. Just sitting at home waiting for the worst to pass, and I've just ordered some Etizolam for the short-term. Quite confident it'll pass over the course of days, so just vegetating for now again. Just took 10mg Colu, I'll see how that pans out.

TL;DR: No real updates.

It's very good to read Nefiracetam is working so well for you!
I'll give Nefiracetam a try again once I get on top of this (and stay on top of this).

Cheers!

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

Osdia, I don't want to offend you, but I've seen you mention you've taken drugs a few times. You have HPPD and as such you should not touch drugs again - ever. Of course you already know this yourself, but I think sometimes it helps to be reminded that you have done something stupid. You put a lot of effort into getting better and then you compromise that by doing more drugs. I don't get it?! If you want to get better you have to stop drugs completely mate!

 

The same goes for your syntheso. Although it does interest me that ketamine made your symptoms worse. I have no fear using NMDA antagonists (I'd be more concerned with agonists). I'm currently on an indirect NMDA antagonist called flupirtine. That, along with Keppra, is providing significant pain relief.

 

Anyway guys, as I say, I don't want to offend, I just want to see you get better - and stay better! There are endless accounts of further drug use making symptoms a lot worse permanently. It's really not worth it.

[Syntheso]

Osdia, I don't want to offend you, but I've seen you mention you've taken drugs a few times. You have HPPD and as such you should not touch drugs again - ever. Of course you already know this yourself, but I think sometimes it helps to be reminded that you have done something stupid. You put a lot of effort into getting better and then you compromise that by doing more drugs. I don't get it?! If you want to get better you have to stop drugs completely mate!

 

The same goes for your syntheso. Although it does interest me that ketamine made your symptoms worse. I have no fear using NMDA antagonists (I'd be more concerned with agonists). I'm currently on an indirect NMDA antagonist called flupirtine. That, along with Keppra, is providing significant pain relief.

 

Anyway guys, as I say, I don't want to offend, I just want to see you get better - and stay better! There are endless accounts of further drug use making symptoms a lot worse permanently. It's really not worth it.

Of course, you are correct, but these things are constantly part of my world, the people around me. If I have had a few drinks - mistakes can be made. Thankfully my mind will not allow me to touch the worse things regardless of sobriety.

Whatever works for each of us! I am not saying I am correct, but I just don't believe blocking the NMDAR is the best solution. Although, as I noted in my other post, if NMDA antagonism gives you sufficient symptom relief then of course do it. My thinking, put simply, is that the symptom relief from NMDA antagonism comes from blocking NMDA-mediated long term depression (LTD), which would only be a palliative treatment. In blocking LTD you are also blocking long term potentiation (LTP), thus, synaptic plasticity, the ability of forming new memories etc. As noted in the other post, I believe fear extinction (+ perhaps vision therapy afterwards) is required to cure the disorder, specifically, chemically-induced fear extinction. Studies have revealed that fear extinction is not the forgetting of traumatic memories, but the reconditioning of the brain to deal with them appropriately. I believe the only possibility for curing HPPD will come from maximising the brain's potential to expand i.e neurogenesis. Blocking the NMDAR would fundamentally hinder that possibility. It would also affect the ability to resolve issues upstream - in the hippocampus, the amygdala. Basically I think NMDA antagonism is just a mask. And life is too short, our brains' potential too minimised already, for me to consider blocking a receptor highly implicated in learning. I would rather potentiate the receptor in forming beneficial memories. I know you're probably thinking excitotoxicity, but most of my recent reading makes me inclined to believe NMDA hypofunction could be responsible for excitotoxicity; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11290881. This isn't the best study, I will find the one I was thinking of.

 

Not saying I am correct, that's just how I see it.

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

To be honest, I wasn't looking for an NMDA antagonist - it is merely a drug which I came across in my quest to find pain relief. I'm having an injection next month with the aim to become drug-free (the injection may nor may not work). But I had no fear in taking it as I did not consider blocking the action of glutamate would be a problem. As an aside, intellectually, I have experienced no problems.

 

I have my own ideas - but I am taking the long route to figuring out this disorder. I am not thinking about the types of things a lot of you are initially. I am starting from the beginning and expanding my overall knowledge of the human body and science in general before trying to work out specifically what has gone wrong and what is the solution, as I believe this is the best way for me to find answers. I don't fully understand all the articles and what-have-you that I read because I don't have a solid grounding of the basics. I like to understand things in-depth. For this reason, I am studying science-based subjects initially, and will then go on to study the brain, before eventually focusing on the mechanisms behind HPPD and PPVD. From my point of view, I don't think a quick-answer is possible. Patience and extensive study is required.

[Syntheso]

To be honest, I wasn't looking for an NMDA antagonist - it is merely a drug which I came across in my quest to find pain relief. I'm having an injection next month with the aim to become drug-free (the injection may nor may not work). But I had no fear in taking it as I did not consider blocking the action of glutamate would be a problem. As an aside, intellectually, I have experienced no problems.

 

I have my own ideas - but I am taking the long route to figuring out this disorder. I am not thinking about the types of things a lot of you are initially. I am starting from the beginning and expanding my overall knowledge of the human body and science in general before trying to work out specifically what has gone wrong and what is the solution, as I believe this is the best way for me to find answers. I don't fully understand all the articles and what-have-you that I read because I don't have a solid grounding of the basics. I like to understand things in-depth. For this reason, I am studying science-based subjects initially, and will then go on to study the brain, before eventually focusing on the mechanisms behind HPPD and PPVD. From my point of view, I don't think a quick-answer is possible. Patience and extensive study is required.

I would love to be able to do that currently, but I simply do not have time, working professionally and doing a degree. I cannot afford a long route, hence why you may perceive that I have rushed into things. That's not quite the case though. I make sure I understand enough about an article to act on it. At the end of the day, whilst it might be useful to understand some nitty gritty (and I often do get nerdy about things), these reports are written by people who really understand what they are talking about, and they provide you with very legible conclusions. Reading over a decent amount of reports and doing some deduction provides me with the information I need, for now at least. My actions have thus far provided me great symptom relief. In the future, when/if time allows, I endeavour to study formally.

On a different note. What pain are you experiencing, could you elaborate?

[onedayillsailagain]

Thanks for you concern Ghormeh.
I took Nefi the day before yesterday, and it seemed to help. Took it yesterday to no avail, possibly even adverse events.
I was feeling bad enough that I decided not to take the third dose.

Currently I am looking to acquire Sarcosine, which turns out to be difficult.
Perhaps I'll try Pregnenolone as well, yet I'll read more literature about that before doing so.

Regarding neurogenesis: Syntheso, I was going to ask you if you were interested in helping hope1 and I conduct a group buy for NSI-189.
VIsually, I doubt it will help, but for all other co-morbid symptoms, it seems to hold great potential. Especially when taking HPPD from a PTSD standpoint.

[Syntheso]

Odisa, I know you're not taking Nefi any more - how did it go?

 

[onedayillsailagain]

Wishy-washy. Improved symptoms one dose, worsened them the next. Perhaps if I'd pushed through I might have been able to stabilize the effects.

[silenttheory]

this brain fog that you describe, I have this without any meds? What do you think it's related to? I am scared of these because it gets so foggy in my head I can't do anything anymore, until I take a clonazepam..