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Have I HPPD or VSS? It’s worsening and I am scared


AntoCVSS
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Hey guys,

I’ve been suffering VSS for 2 years into mild and not too symptomatic way, but last month it became so several worse and I want to ask you something about my symptoms because I am super confused and afraid.

Let me explain my case.
About 2 - 3 years ago I tried hashis cigarette from some friends, I had a really bad trip with visual hallucinogens (something that got me super anxious and depressed, I didn’t like the effect).
After some weeks I got panic attacks and much anxiety, so my doctors prescribed me Sertraline 100mg and Lorazepam 1g per day. After some months of getting alright I started getting VS symptom, static dots in my vision like a TV. I went to the doctor but my vision was alright and my brain too, so as it didn’t bother me too much I lived with it for 2 years.

On Summer 2019 I felt so good so I stopped the medication gradually, I stopped the full medication on December 2019. Last month I got too anxious because a medical test. So my VS got worse and I started with flashes in the eyes, palinopsia and severe nyctalopia. I also had a kind of bad tinnitus so I went to the doctor and got treated with Dacortin (corticosteroids).
and also I had to start again with my psychiatrist medication because anxiety and obsessive compulsive intrusive thoughts.
Nowadays my VSS is super severe but I also have some weird, uncomfortable symptoms, and I get something new everyday, I am super afraid.
I have really severe symptoms: VS, palinopsia, nyctalopia, afterimages, really hard flashes at the edge of my vision, spontaneous and random black and bright dots that appear and disappear from the vision quickly, and also I have the perception of looking and object and the object moves so lengt but it only have a seconds duration.
Everyday from 1 month symptoms get worse and worse, I had to stop working because my world is so distorted.

Do you think it’s VSS, or HPPD??
What I can do and how I can be threated? I need help.

I saw a lot of success on Clonazepam and Clonidine or Lamotrigine. Should I go to the doctor to get a prescription of those? I am super afraid, anxious and desesperated.

I also have obsesive and intrusive thoughts about becoming schizophrenic, or suffering it for all the life. I can’t live with that, I feel like living into a psichedelic trip, and I NEVER tried LSD, cocaine, MDMA, or something like that, I have been always fear of these kind of drugs. So what do you think?

Looking for your answer, thanks for your time and attention.

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You do not get hppd from just marijuana. It sounds like you have developed visual snow syndrome. You also have what sounds like a pretty serious anxiety condition. This is making you super conscious of the visual snow that you can see and reading and worrying about hppd is combining with your anxiety to exacerbate the visual things into you talking yourself into having hppd.

Treatment: do what is the only proven treatment to combat this affliction. Sort your mental health out.

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13 hours ago, TryingToHelp said:

You do not get hppd from just marijuana. It sounds like you have developed visual snow syndrome. You also have what sounds like a pretty serious anxiety condition. This is making you super conscious of the visual snow that you can see and reading and worrying about hppd is combining with your anxiety to exacerbate the visual things into you talking yourself into having hppd.

Treatment: do what is the only proven treatment to combat this affliction. Sort your mental health out.

Thank you so much man for real🙏🏻
I am afraid because I have a symptom that VSS hasn’t at his list. I can see aparent movement on static objects, like I am looking to a book and I can see the book is like moving slowly.

I have an example with an image (this effect is normal on this image, but not on every single objects)

D838214D-5E10-4740-A183-4DCB6C093E49.jpeg

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Most people would 'see' things such as that if they were anxious about their vision and keep checking it. Vision is as much about the brains interpretations of the raw visual signals as much as it is about the signal itself. Dont focus on your vision, get out and about living life and you won't notice stuff.

Last bit of advice, dont come on this forum or indeed any other about hppd. They are full of negativity and wild theories about brain damage etc. Someone will undoubtedly come along and tell you that you must have hppd even though it was just from a joint. With your existing anxiety, that will send you down a bad road.

Think about this rationally. Humans have been using cannabis for thousands of years with zero hppd reports. Where are all the jamaican rastas, hip hop stars etc with hppd? Tens of us states ain't gonna legalise something that causes hppd. 

Hppd has only ever been reported since the 1950s when people started using 'proper psychedelic drugs'. 

 

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:56 PM, TryingToHelp said:

You do not get hppd from just marijuana. It sounds like you have developed visual snow syndrome. You also have what sounds like a pretty serious anxiety condition. This is making you super conscious of the visual snow that you can see and reading and worrying about hppd is combining with your anxiety to exacerbate the visual things into you talking yourself into having hppd.

Treatment: do what is the only proven treatment to combat this affliction. Sort your mental health out.

TryingToHelp is most certainly wrong here, as he is usually about just about everything he says.

Marijuana in very rare cases has caused HPPD and we have had a couple members claim that to be the case with them. So hash also could cause HPPD, being that it has a variably higher occurrence of THC. It is however extremely rare to have have hallucinations on Mari/Hash, are you sure that it wasn't some hybrid knockoff form of weed? The legal substitute compounds for related highs similar to weed have been known to cause various effects, including HPPD, and are highly untested compounds.

IMO since you have anxiety coupled with visual snow and did in fact hallucinate, you likely have HPPD. It is concerning that your symptoms have been getting worse, I would highly recommend that you ask to discontinue Sertraline as it is an SSRI and it is commonly known to exasperate symptoms of HPPD, but also i would recommend the continuation of Lorazepam, as benzodiazapines appear to be the most current and best treatment known for severe HPPD. If any other members wouldn't mind pitching in here about their symptoms getting worse on SSRIs please do share as I know I have seen quite a lot. Also there are plenty of case studies on NCBI that show the same result so you can look there also.

Progressive symptoms in HPPD for even up to two years is not consistent with typical HPPD, it could have been accelerated by Sertraline, and not noticed because of the Lorazepam helping the symptoms. People have even gotten palinopsia and HPPD related symptoms from only SSRI use. Anyways symptoms for the first year or so tend to get better in typical HPPD, so your symptoms are not entirely consistent. I do not feel that you have only visual snow syndrome however. Also obsessive and intrusive thoughts are not always consistent with HPPD, have you had any other related medical diagnostics done like EEGs or MRIs? Do you have any other symptoms at all that you can think of? I would recommend returning to your doctor for further diagnostics to make sure to rule out any other disorders, and/or start out by asking to discontinue SSRI use, and see where it goes from there. If you start to have any motor control issues make sure to report those to your doctor.

The night blindness is also very interesting as well, as that can be simply caused by deficiencies in vitamin A. I don't know if that either is very much associated with HPPD. Basically not all your symptoms in my opinion are consistent with HPPD, but some definitely are, especially after following hallucinations from drugs use, even if it was only hash.

Good luck! And give it time.

Also TryingToHelp is literally learning disabled. He cant help is so just be nice to him and smile. 

Edited by dasitmane
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16 minutes ago, TryingToHelp said:

And here we go. @dasitmane dragging someone else into his web of despair. Guy just needs to deal with his mental health issues and here you go trying to convince him he has 'hppd'. Nothing could be less helpful.

Clearly you didn't read the post, I didn't at all try and convince him he has HPPD, I stated very clearly that he does have symptoms that coincide with HPPD, and he also has symptoms that do not coincide with HPPD. I also recommended appropriate changes in medications, and possible furthering of diagnostics to rule out any other conditions which would help establish a stronger foundation for it being specifically HPPD. This is all protocol that any good doctor should do.

Clearly you really cannot read lmao.

Edited by dasitmane
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11 minutes ago, TryingToHelp said:

And here we go. @dasitmane dragging someone else into his web of despair. Guy just needs to deal with his mental health issues and here you go trying to convince him he has 'hppd'. Nothing could be less helpful.

Why is it that every thread that has some problems, you are involved?

Here's some advice... Stop stating your opinion as fact. Stop belittling people who actually have hppd. You have your theory and we've allowed that opinion to stay on the forum in your threads... I don't want to see any more of it on other threads. 

On the OP... I think weed can give you hppd, and that is without thinking about laced weed or synthetics. The good news is that most everyone who has arrived here with hppd from weed has recovered quickly.

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1 hour ago, dasitmane said:

TryingToHelp is most certainly wrong here, as he is usually about just about everything he says.

Marijuana in very rare cases has caused HPPD and we have had a couple members claim that to be the case with them. So hash also could cause HPPD, being that it has a variably higher occurrence of THC. It is however extremely rare to have have hallucinations on Mari/Hash, are you sure that it wasn't some hybrid knockoff form of weed? The legal substitute compounds for related highs similar to weed have been known to cause various effects, including HPPD, and are highly untested compounds.

IMO since you have anxiety coupled with visual snow and did in fact hallucinate, you likely have HPPD. It is concerning that your symptoms have been getting worse, I would highly recommend that you ask to discontinue Sertraline as it is an SSRI and it is commonly known to exasperate symptoms of HPPD, but also i would recommend the continuation of Lorazepam, as benzodiazapines appear to be the most current and best treatment known for severe HPPD. If any other members wouldn't mind pitching in here about their symptoms getting worse on SSRIs please do share as I know I have seen quite a lot. Also there are plenty of case studies on NCBI that show the same result so you can look there also.

Progressive symptoms in HPPD for even up to two years is not consistent with typical HPPD, it could have been accelerated by Sertraline, and not noticed because of the Lorazepam helping the symptoms. People have even gotten palinopsia and HPPD related symptoms from only SSRI use. Anyways symptoms for the first year or so tend to get better in typical HPPD, so your symptoms are not entirely consistent. I do not feel that you have only visual snow syndrome however. Also obsessive and intrusive thoughts are not always consistent with HPPD, have you had any other related medical diagnostics done like EEGs or MRIs? Do you have any other symptoms at all that you can think of? I would recommend returning to your doctor for further diagnostics to make sure to rule out any other disorders, and/or start out by asking to discontinue SSRI use, and see where it goes from there. If you start to have any motor control issues make sure to report those to your doctor.

The night blindness is also very interesting as well, as that can be simply caused by deficiencies in vitamin A. I don't know if that either is very much associated with HPPD. Basically not all your symptoms in my opinion are consistent with HPPD, but some definitely are, especially after following hallucinations from drugs use, even if it was only hash.

Good luck! And give it time.

Also TryingToHelp is literally learning disabled. He cant help is so just be nice to him and smile. 

Hey man, thank you so much for real.

I was diagnosed with Depressive-Anxious Disease 3 years ago, because before my HPPD started I had some anxiety and panic attacks so I started taking antidepressants. I thinl nowadays I evolved it to a OCD (Obsesive Compulsive Disease) because these intrusive thoughts are always getting me super anxious and non stop.

Will try to stop Sertraline and maybe change Lorazepam for Clonazepam?

Do you think I‘m going to recover?

Yes I did a magnetic resonance and all was alright, no “physical” problems on my brain.

Thanks for all the help!

Do you have some other natural tips for reduce the symptoms?

And yes man I have also another symptom non visual: Tinnitus, and also cramps and tingling sensation on hands and arms.

 

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Just now, AntoCVSS said:

Hey man, thank you so much for real.

I was diagnosed with Depressive-Anxious Disease 3 years ago, because before my HPPD started I had some anxiety and panic attacks so I started taking antidepressants. I thinl nowadays I evolved it to a OCD (Obsesive Compulsive Disease) because these intrusive thoughts are always getting me super anxious and non stop.

Will try to stop Sertraline and maybe change Lorazepam for Clonazepam?

Do you think I‘m going to recover?

Yes I did a magnetic resonance and all was alright, no “physical” problems on my brain.

Thanks for all the help!

Do you have some other natural tips for reduce the symptoms?

And yes man I have also another symptom non visual: Tinnitus, and also cramps and tingling sensation on hands and arms.

 

Ando also not sure about weed, a friend told me “it’s a really good hash, you are going to smoke quality”. I smoked with 3 more friends, they were cool, and I had hallucinations (they smoked more than me though, I took like 5-6 puffs)

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On 2/24/2020 at 8:10 AM, AntoCVSS said:

Hey guys,

I’ve been suffering VSS for 2 years into mild and not too symptomatic way, but last month it became so several worse and I want to ask you something about my symptoms because I am super confused and afraid.  ...  I had a really bad trip with visual hallucinogens

Since you got it from a "bad trip with visual hallucinogens", that is defining point of HPPD that is not VSS.

But really, the diagnosing belongs to doctors who understand the disorder(s) --- good luck finding one.

Also, to some degree the point is mute because there is no established medical protocol to treat either.  You just have to try things with doctor(s) who are willing to help.

Finally, people don't become schizophrenic or die from HPPD or VSS.  It can just be very unpleasant and for some, interfere with work.

The visual problems are 'illusions' not hallucinations.  The anxiety (which most, but not all, have) can be reduced both medically and psychologically.

 

12 hours ago, AntoCVSS said:

Thank you so much man for real🙏🏻
I am afraid because I have a symptom that VSS hasn’t at his list. I can see aparent movement on static objects, like I am looking to a book and I can see the book is like moving slowly.

I have an example with an image (this effect is normal on this image, but not on every single objects)

D838214D-5E10-4740-A183-4DCB6C093E49.jpeg

As you already know, this picture produces the illusion of movement.

If you are interested in understanding how this picture works, it relies on the brain's calculating dimension and distance.  Most are familiar with the fact that having 2 eyes allows 'binocular' vision - understanding distance.  A lesser know process is that the brain relies on contrast and shading to do the same function.

In the case of this picture, the artist simply does shading deliberately inconsistent.  So as the brain tries to figure things out, because it is inconsistent, the results are inconsistent, switching to one perspective then another.  This creates the illusion of movement.

As for HPPD, movement of 'static' objects is cause by the brain being uncertain as to what it is seeing so perspective again switches around creating the illusion of movement.  Likely you will find the magnitude of effect depends both on what you are looking at and also the overall brightness.

With HPPD, slight uncertainties can also affect attention/focus.  Uncertainty drives one to vigilance which can increase anxiety.

Explaining this (and hopefully people understanding this) can help one understand what is going on and thus help reduce anxiety about it - though it can still be annoying.

 

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10 minutes ago, Jay1 said:

Why is it that every thread that has some problems, you are involved?

Here's some advice... Stop stating your opinion as fact. Stop belittling people who actually have hppd. You have your theory and we've allowed that opinion to stay on the forum in your threads... I don't want to see any more of it on other threads. 

On the OP... I think weed can give you hppd, and that is without thinking about laced weed or synthetics. The good news is that most everyone who has arrived here with hppd from weed has recovered quickly.

Wow I’m relieved to hear that! Then I have to wait a bit more? Maybe some months or a year? 
also will try to do my best for healthy life condition.

Are you also know if CBD helps for recovering? I heard really cool opinions from that.

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9 minutes ago, VisualDude said:

Since you got it from a "bad trip with visual hallucinogens", that is defining point of HPPD that is not VSS.

But really, the diagnosing belongs to doctors who understand the disorder(s) --- good luck finding one.

Also, to some degree the point is mute because there is no established medical protocol to treat either.  You just have to try things with doctor(s) who are willing to help.

Finally, people don't become schizophrenic or die from HPPD or VSS.  It can just be very unpleasant and for some, interfere with work.

The visual problems are 'illusions' not hallucinations.  The anxiety (which most, but not all, have) can be reduced both medically and psychologically.

 

As you already know, this picture produces the illusion of movement.

If you are interested in understanding how this picture works, it relies on the brain's calculating dimension and distance.  Most are familiar with the fact that having 2 eyes allows 'binocular' vision - understanding distance.  A lesser know process is that the brain relies on contrast and shading to do the same function.

In the case of this picture, the artist simply does shading deliberately inconsistent.  So as the brain tries to figure things out, because it is inconsistent, the results are inconsistent, switching to one perspective then another.  This creates the illusion of movement.

As for HPPD, movement of 'static' objects is cause by the brain being uncertain as to what it is seeing so perspective again switches around creating the illusion of movement.  Likely you will find the magnitude of effect depends both on what you are looking at and also the overall brightness.

With HPPD, slight uncertainties can also affect attention/focus.  Uncertainty drives one to vigilance which can increase anxiety.

Explaining this (and hopefully people understanding this) can help one understand what is going on and thus help reduce anxiety about it - though it can still be annoying.

 

Thank you so much for your answer man, helps a lot for real.

So then anxiety exacerbates my symptoms too much because I am looking to them at everytime.

This condition can be really annoying omg. I hope I can recover from it soon, or at least learn how to live with it.

It’s also so interesting how the brain works on that kind of cases and why it can cause movement at static objects.

I hope all of you have a great day guys!

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10 hours ago, AntoCVSS said:

Wow I’m relieved to hear that! Then I have to wait a bit more? Maybe some months or a year? 
also will try to do my best for healthy life condition.

Are you also know if CBD helps for recovering? I heard really cool opinions from that.

Hey, for the best chance at recovery, the rules are pretty simple... Stay sober (inc. alcohol and caffeine), eat healthy, exercise, try to sleep well and just try to distract yourself as much as possible... Watch films, go for walks in nature.. Whatever works best for you. 

My personal opinion is you should try and get through a few months we zero input - no meds, no supplements. Just try to get used to your baseline with no added input. 

Good luck , Jay

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I dont think that is fair. If someone with a history of mental health issues comes on asking if they have hppd after 1 joint I feel it is my duty to present an alternative explanation. To say that I can only post my views on my own threads prevents me from doing this.

The very concept of hppd is very dangerous to a fragile mind. People should come to it as a last resort.

 

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22 hours ago, AntoCVSS said:

Thank you so much for your answer man, helps a lot for real.

So then anxiety exacerbates my symptoms too much because I am looking to them at everytime.

This condition can be really annoying omg. I hope I can recover from it soon, or at least learn how to live with it.

It’s also so interesting how the brain works on that kind of cases and why it can cause movement at static objects.

I hope all of you have a great day guys!

Since the topic of anxiety and HPPD is perhaps the most frequent, it might be helpful to understand some of the processes going on.  It seems true that most people with HPPD have anxiety issues.  A rare few have no anxiety with their HPPD.  Then there are plenty that find anxiety aggravates HPPD … and controlling anxiety alleviates HPPD at least to some degree.

Most are familiar with the amygdala and one’s fight/fright response.  But more is involved.

To start with, many brain functions are compartmentalized.  Some functions are primarily in one physical location.  Others are inter-wired all over the place, but are nevertheless, ‘functionally contained’.

A good place to start is with attention and focus.  Basically, attention/focus has 3 states:

  • Concentration (learning, reading, etc...)
  • Vigilance (hunting, guarding, etc...)
  • Sleep

If you think about it, these are mutually exclusive.  That is, you can't be vigilant and sleep.  You can't concentrate and be vigilant, etc...

These states are determined by the midbrain and executive center.  For example, you can override the need to sleep in order to do something (executive).  However there is at least one ‘gating’ center (think of a big electrical switching center) that shuts down parts of the brain as well as turning on other parts, depending on ones primary state.  See Locus Coeruleus.  One example of this is that when you sleep, voluntary movement is shutdown so that you don’t run while you are in a dream about running.  Even emotions have ‘gated’ aspects.  Usually one emotion is prominent at a time.  For example, one usually isn’t happy and sad at the same time.

Generally, anxiety pushes vigilance.  However, vigilance might not have anxiety.  One may be hunting, ever vigilant.  However if they are being hunted, then anxiety is most likely.


Another brain function involved is visual processing.  While technically too intertwined to be truly separate, in practical terms there are two visual processing systems:

  • Ambient visual processing (very fast [few milliseconds], emotional, vigilant) involves primarily peripheral vision but also balance and auditory input.  It allows one to duck when an object is thrown at them – without wasting time to figure out what that object is.
  • Focal visual processing (slow [~200ms], intellectual, detailed) involves central vision such as the macula which enables seeing fine detail.  This allows one to later figure out that the above object was a baseball.

There are other parts of vision as well, such as at least two ‘planes’ of visual data: one you are immediately seeing and the other, what you saw just moments before.  So disorders here will cause people to see multiple copies of a moving object.  However, for this discussion, it isn’t important to cover any more about the very complex world of visual perception.


All these parts of brain function are complexly connected and finely balanced.  Thus taking recreational drugs causes temporary alterations in perception.  Hallucinogens seem to get the most attention with regard severity of perceptual changes.

With HPPD, for whatever reason, one gets stuck with perceptual alterations.  These may be temporary periods (‘flashbacks’) or they may be 24/7.  Each person's symptoms vary in intensity and which ones they have.  All of it is simply versions of the picture you posted above - the brain just can't quite get all the details right, so it shifts and changes perception.

Dr Abraham used terms such as ‘cerebral disinhibition’.  An over active state with less ‘order’, less in control/balance.  Anxiety and panic are also states of ‘excess’.  Functionally they are meant to be brief, not chronic.  In either case, the increased activity of anxiety means less control.


It isn’t difficult to see how anxiety pushes vigilance, which pushes visual aberations, which, in turn, adds to anxiety.  One can also see why benzodiazepines may help an individual.  These act on GABA receptors to reduce the rate of neuron firing (reduce brain activity).  GABA by nature is inhibitory thus handy for 'disinhibition'.

Members who are able to control anxiety may have less visual symptoms.  In some regards it may be as simple as paying less attention (being less ‘vigilant’) to these aberrations.  But people have their own experience and versions of HPPD.

HPPD isn’t at all unique in being bothered by anxiety.  People with autoimmune diseases may have a flare up due to getting upset.  A doctor once told me that anxiety is to AIDS as are maggots to a dead body – the person deteriorates more rapidly.


So the continual advice that members post about controlling anxiety is valid.  And some find their ‘flashback-phase’ goes away when calm.  None of this means HPPD is just an anxiety disorder.  It may simply be made worse by anxiety – as are many aspects of life.

The underlying reason for a person having HPPD may be plasticity (adaptive rewiring) or some sort of actual injury (damages synapses).  This is a debate that seems to cause more fear than being useful.  In the end, it is irrelevant because one simply has a problem now and needs to get on with life as well as find ways to manage it better.  

Somewhere Dr A commented that HPPD usually goes away in time.  The best advice to live as health a lifestyle as they can.  Including techniques to reduce anxiety (medication, nature hikes, mindfulness, etc…).  Jay1 has already mentioned this.


Hope this is helpful
 

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A very interesting post from someone who unlike @dasitmane seems to have a balanced mind and good understanding of the way the brain works. 

But I postulate that the 'cerebral disinhibition' is most likely to result from a mental process of chronic anxiety coupled with memory and associations of the drug experience rather than actual 'drug damage'. Ie this is the cause of any 'adaptive rewiring'.

This is not intended to belittle the condition in any way. 

 

Edited by TryingToHelp
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14 hours ago, TryingToHelp said:

I dont think that is fair. If someone with a history of mental health issues comes on asking if they have hppd after 1 joint I feel it is my duty to present an alternative explanation. To say that I can only post my views on my own threads prevents me from doing this.

The very concept of hppd is very dangerous to a fragile mind. People should come to it as a last resort.

 

Look at all the other posts, no one else is giving some definitive diagnosis. We just offer our opinion and advice... No one is telling him/her that they definitely have hppd and to jump on x,y,z medication.

Literally all you need to do is say something like "hey, my personal opinion is that you can't get hppd from weed, but I do have some suggestions on coping with the anxiety"..... That's it, all you need to do to help someone, while not coming across as a know all.

The problem with having this binary mindset is you can also cause damage... Now, imagine this guy actually does have hppd, but takes your diagnosis as gospel and thinks, "ok, I don't have hppd, so that means I can try SSRIs, a common anti anxiety med"... They take that and fuck their hppd even more. Dangerous, right? 

Leave the diagnosis to the doctors... This place is to offer personal advice, opinion, and non binary thought about the causes of hppd (no one is right or wrong, it is just info and advice).

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On 2/27/2020 at 2:09 PM, TryingToHelp said:

A very interesting post from someone who unlike @dasitmane seems to have a balanced mind and good understanding of the way the brain works. 

But I postulate that the 'cerebral disinhibition' is most likely to result from a mental process of chronic anxiety coupled with memory and associations of the drug experience rather than actual 'drug damage'. Ie this is the cause of any 'adaptive rewiring'.

This is not intended to belittle the condition in any way. 

 

giphy.gif

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On 2/27/2020 at 11:37 AM, TryingToHelp said:

I dont think that is fair. If someone with a history of mental health issues comes on asking if they have hppd after 1 joint I feel it is my duty to present an alternative explanation. To say that I can only post my views on my own threads prevents me from doing this.

The very concept of hppd is very dangerous to a fragile mind. People should come to it as a last resort.

 

giphy.gif

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