HPPD ≈ Chronic Anticholinergic Syndrome?

[onedayillsailagain]

Have a look at the symptoms of Acute Anticholinergic Syndrome.

Eerily familiar, huh?

Note that the '≈' sign is not a '=' sign.

I'm not saying this is true, I'm just saying I'm seeing an eerily large resemblance here.

Thoughts?

[Cupasoup]

Interesting! Quite similar, indeed.

 

Can anyone relate to this having used of Pro-cholinergic substances? Choline, Piracetam? I have used CDP-choline for a while, but got frequently struck with awfully depressive bouts, so i had to stop. I experienced no relieve in visual symptoms during use, and no noticable cognitive benifits whatsoever, but it could be me.

[onedayillsailagain]

Whether Piracetam is pro-cholinergic is actually still up for debate.

It might be that it can be considered anti-cholinergic in some ways, which could worsen symptoms.

The distinction between ACh and Choline must be considered though, leaving the ambiguous nature of language open to nitpickery (mierenneukerij).
While CDP-Choline may simply provide the brain with more Choline to synthesize AcetylCholine, it needn't necessarily raise AcetylCholine levels if, for example, there's Choline Acetyltransferase dysfunction present somehow. Whilst Choline+Acetyl Coenzyme A are required by Choline Acetyltransferase to synthesize AcetylCholine, simply supplementing Choline may not suffice to actually raise ACh levels, as the limit of the amount of ACh synthesized is set by High-Affinity Choline Uptake (HACU).

Coluracetam, on the other hand, enhances HACU (i.e. raises the upper limit ACh synthesis ability) which could be far more direct of an action than even AChEIs (which nobody has tried yet for HPPD, AFAIK). Yeah.. seems like I'm promoting the stuff.. Just really excited. Just a week or two till I receive it

I've experienced neither bettering or worsening of symptoms with Choline (as bitartrate), Piracetam, or those two combined.

En ik reageer later wel ff op je bericht, beetje waus vandaag.

Cheers.

[onedayillsailagain]

So just to show the similarities.. Bolded text is what I personally have (either chronic or not).

Possible effects of anticholinergics include:

 

Ataxia; loss of coordination

Decreased mucus production in the nose and throat; consequent dry, sore throat

Xerostomia or dry-mouth (n.b. could be due to my smoking habits) with possible acceleration of dental caries

Cessation of perspiration; consequent decreased epidermal thermal dissipation leading to warm, blotchy, or red skin

Increased body temperature

Pupil dilation (mydriasis); consequent sensitivity to bright light (photophobia)

Loss of accommodation (loss of focusing ability, blurred vision – cycloplegia)

Double-vision (diplopia)

Increased heart rate (tachycardia)

Tendency to be easily startled

Urinary retention

Diminished bowel movement, sometimes ileus (decreases motility via the vagus nerve)

Increased intraocular pressure; dangerous for people with narrow-angle glaucoma

Shaking

 

Possible effects in the central nervous system resemble those associated with delirium, and may include:

 

Confusion

Disorientation

Agitation

Euphoria or dysphoria

Respiratory depression

Memory problems

Inability to concentrate

Wandering thoughts; inability to sustain a train of thought

Incoherent speech

Irritability

Mental confusion (brain fog)

Wakeful myoclonic jerking

Unusual sensitivity to sudden sounds

Illogical thinking

Photophobia

Visual disturbances

Periodic flashes of light

Periodic changes in visual field

Visual snow

Restricted or "tunnel vision"

Visual, auditory, or other sensory hallucinations

Warping or waving of surfaces and edges

Textured surfaces

"Dancing" lines; "spiders", insects; form constants

Lifelike objects indistinguishable from reality

Hallucinated presence of people not actually there

Rarely: seizures, coma, and death

Orthostatic hypotension (sudden dropping of systolic blood pressure when standing up suddenly) and significantly increased risk of falls in the elderly population.

[etardnow]

One of the more noticeable symptoms I had was Orthostatic hypotension, and the "dimness" of when it occurs sort of remains at 1% in my 'normal' vision.

 

Another disease, dopamine beta hydroxylase deficiency, also thought to be underdiagnosed, causes loss of sympathetic noradrenergic function and is characterized by a low or extremely low levels of norepinephrine, but an excess of dopamine.^[4]

 

^{which is basically norepinephrine and epinephrine deficiency. which are both neurotransmitters that have the ability to fuck everything up...} 

 

^{I dont know if it means anything but whenever I see the word dopamine, serotonin, etc i just link this and that lol :\}

[onedayillsailagain]

Mwe I can't see how DβHD would be related.. Cause anxiety is rather common, along with symptoms that would indicate sympathetic hyperactivity rather than hypoactivity. Personally I think the orthostatic hypotension is just a side-effect from doing absolutely jack-shit nothing with my life, but idk what's causing it in others. Hypovolemia would be far more logical than DβHD as a cause, or so I would presume.

Going blind can happen with an extreme episode (i've had that a few times as well with orthostatic hypotension): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthostatic_hypotension#Signs_and_symptoms

Nothing to worry about I suppose.

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

I went blind for a couple of minutes many years ago after pushing myself too hard whilst running. When I finished the final lap I stopped and that's when I went blind. Strange experience!

[Onemorestep]

This is the majority of my symptoms! However, I've noticed that some symptoms I have are from too high levels of acetylcholine and some are from too low. Things that boost acetylcholine make the high acetylcholine symptoms worse. Oxiracetam worked very well for a while, but by the end I was getting symptoms such as photophobia indicating it was lowering acetylcholine in areas.

Coluracetam at any dosage now makes me flip out for three weeks at least.

My theory is that HPPD disrupts levels of acetylcholine to very high and low levels in different parts of the brain. We don't need to imagine how hellish this would feel.

[VisualDude]

Have a look at the symptoms of Acute Anticholinergic Syndrome.

Eerily familiar, huh?

Note that the '≈' sign is not a '=' sign.

I'm not saying this is true, I'm just saying I'm seeing an eerily large resemblance here.

Thoughts?

 

Hi again, OneDay....  Hope you are well - its been a lot of time since hearing from you

 

Remembered when you first posted this info.  At the time mulled and ruminated about this since there were so many things paralleling dopamine issues ... and to some extent some contradictions since PD is treated with both dopamine agonists and anticholinergics.

 

Finally found out that the commonality with all the symptoms you list is thiamine.  Deficiency messes with all neurotransmitters suspected, causes dysautonamic (hypothalmic) problems, cognative issues, etc.  If you get the opportunity, check out this thread http://hppdonline.com/index.php?/topic/5027-thiamine-cocarboxylase/ 

[Granite]

This is the majority of my symptoms! However, I've noticed that some symptoms I have are from too high levels of acetylcholine and some are from too low. Things that boost acetylcholine make the high acetylcholine symptoms worse. Oxiracetam worked very well for a while, but by the end I was getting symptoms such as photophobia indicating it was lowering acetylcholine in areas.

 

Fascinating.  One of the first symptoms I got from HPPD was hives (cholinergic urticaria) from sunlight, heat exposure. I initially tried to use anti-histamines, but I produced a paradoxical reaction and broke out in more hives.  I quickly found out that alcohol could control my hives.  So, I drank heavily for a long time, until my symptoms kind of shifted.  I was sweating a lot early on, hot, and such... then I started getting cold, not sweating at all, and my hives never came out.  I have now learned that alcohol works as a GABA-A receptor positive allosteric modulator, which is the first time I've been able to explain why alcohol solved my problems (see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABAA_receptor_positive_allosteric_modulator).  Over time though, alcohol must have desensitized something else, that made this far less effective and started causing other immune-related symptoms.

 

I also took Finasteride for a while, which temporarily cured me entirely of HPPD.  I have now discovered finasteride (which acts of 5-alpha reductase enzyme) has properties that increase the action of GABA(A) receptors, and it's very plausible this is what cured my case.

 

EDIT:  I forgot to mention the photophobia thing.  When I started I had visual snow, but I had no photophobia.  It wasn't until years later when that shift took place from hot sweating and having hives to cold not sweating and no hives that I started to develop the photophobia!

[Fatihh]

On 1/17/2016 at 8:12 PM, Onemorestep said:

This is the majority of my symptoms! However, I've noticed that some symptoms I have are from too high levels of acetylcholine and some are from too low. Things that boost acetylcholine make the high acetylcholine symptoms worse. Oxiracetam worked very well for a while, but by the end I was getting symptoms such as photophobia indicating it was lowering acetylcholine in areas.

Coluracetam at any dosage now makes me flip out for three weeks at least.

My theory is that HPPD disrupts levels of acetylcholine to very high and low levels in different parts of the brain. We don't need to imagine how hellish this would feel.

You do not have photophobia anymore?

[Onemorestep]

8 hours ago, Fatihh said:

You do not have photophobia anymore?

Luckily, I do not. Plenty of other things to worry about!

[Fatihh]

14 hours ago, Onemorestep said:

Luckily, I do not. Plenty of other things to worry about!

It is actually quite new and exciting for me thaf something increased and lowered your photophobia. Do you have any advice for me? Should I take choline?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Fatihh

[Onemorestep]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:16 PM, Fatihh said:

It is actually quite new and exciting for me thaf something increased and lowered your photophobia. Do you have any advice for me? Should I take choline?

I unfortunately do not  my photophobia went away relatively fast after cessation of racetams. I know acetylcholine can influence photophobia-- myasthenia gravis and anticholinergic poisoning often cause it. Thats been the extent of my research over the years...

[Talha]

On 1/18/2016 at 12:12 AM, Onemorestep said:

This is the majority of my symptoms! However, I've noticed that some symptoms I have are from too high levels of acetylcholine and some are from too low. Things that boost acetylcholine make the high acetylcholine symptoms worse. Oxiracetam worked very well for a while, but by the end I was getting symptoms such as photophobia indicating it was lowering acetylcholine in areas.

Coluracetam at any dosage now makes me flip out for three weeks at least.

My theory is that HPPD disrupts levels of acetylcholine to very high and low levels in different parts of the brain. We don't need to imagine how hellish this would feel.

So do you think that if my symptoms are mostly similar to acetyl choline deficienct ,some of acetyl choline suppliments can be useful for me ?