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Spitting out yet another theory: Magnesium


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I really have to find a new hobby. Anyway, I'll try to keep this theory short.

It is well known that many medications that mitigate (sometimes very effectively) HPPD symptoms, either directly or indirectly inhibit calcium channels. Think Levetiracetam (Keppra), Lamotrigine (Lamictal), Flunarizine, Clonidine.. you get the point. New to Neurology (or Ionic transmission etc.)? Have a quick introduction here, to help you comprehend this theory.

Now then.. observe the following abstract:
magnesium.png

 

That's right, I was too lazy to type it out. Source

 

"Magnesium can block calcium action"

Yep... that's it. Guess that doesn't need further explanation so as to what the possible implication of magnesium might be.
Experiences anyone? I'll just chalk this up on my list of research targets for the time being.

Ohh one thing though: there seems to be little mention of brain specific activity, and mostly cardiovasculair stuff.. I'm just gonna go ahead and presume that calcium inhibition happens throughout the organism in every structure? Anyone with a little more knowledge on that subject, please feel free to comment. I mean, when I look up CCB's on Wiki, there's little info on brain-specific effects.. Only a short mentioning of anti-convulsant effects.

On a side note, I noticed that my dear mother uses Amlodipine, which happens to be a calcium channel blocker... Had I known that earlier I might've experimented with that, but with treatment around the corner it seems pointless.

WAIT! There's more. For just 9,99... ok sorry. Ahum. Check out this study. My work here is done :D

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While this CAN be an extensive topic, in condensed form ...

 

About 90 years ago, Dr Potinger discovered that virtually all "visceral disease" is caused by autonomic nervous system imbalance (sympathetic vs parasympathetic).  Furthermore, genetics is the primary 'origin' of such balance/imbalance and diet is the secondary factor.  You can shift any imbalance by change of diet.

 

Ultimately, he found that you can change balance by working with just 4 minerals rather than thousands of foods and herbs.  These are: Ca, Mg, K, and Na (and most emphasis was the first 3).

 

The importance of this is outstanding ... but largely ignored.  This work was later confirmed by Dr Gelhorn, sort of a father of neuro-psychology because he demonstrated that neurons affect emotions (that is, we are physical) and neurotransmitters affect emotions.

 

Surprisingly, or perhaps not-surprising, this info is ignored.  Afterall, you can hardly patent Calcium or Magnesium.  Aside from money being an issue, peoples habits are: people don't what to change what or how they eat - they what a magic pill to fix anything and everything that goes wrong.

 

 

So ... Mg is calming for most everyone.   Anxiety is very common with HPPD.  Mg increases parasympathetic activity (so if you take too much you get the runs - 'milk of magnesia').  Ca increases sympathetic activity.  [ The actual details are even more interesting, but no room here  ]

 

It should be noted that many members report autonomic nervous system alterations.  [ One of my favorite to report is changes in pupil size, sometimes even 'uneven' size ]  Furthermore, I posit that altering the autonomic nervous system balance will alter CNS (brain) balance.  Remember too that some of our symptoms relate to the midbrain areas, such as amygdala (back to anxiety again!), which are rather 'automatic' in functioning. 

 

And of course I can't resist mentioning the midbrain area is the major dopamine area.  Dopamine is a sympathetic nervous system player.  So by manipulating the sympathetic nervous system with minerals/diet, you can to a small degree affect dopamine circuits in the brain!

 

 

Onedayillsaleagain, I know you like to experiment so be careful.  For example, if you take wopping doses of K, you can stop your heart.  In general, these minerals are safe to play with - and we need plenty of them every day - but since the balance of them regulates neuron balance, the heart is affected (being a hybrid muscle-neuron).

 

 

Well, that is as brief as I can state this.  Hope it isn't too choppy.  Just think about  (and research) each point ...

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Wow thanks for the extensive reply Visual!

I considered Epsom Salts.. But I don't have a bathtub. And oral magnesium was on the candidate list for a while, but you know, unemployment financial priorities and the like.

And thank you for the caution, but I always do make sure to educate myself sufficiently before conducting my experiments.
I remember someone inquiring about calcium supplementation.. I guess we can now conclude that that wouldn't be a great idea?


Anyways, as with many of my theories.. I never really dive into them too deep (cognition blabla). I just post them here, so that I (and others) can use them as a basis for further theorization later. This reminds me, I should make a back-up.

Ahh.. now another thing pops into my head! Ever since I've had HPPD, I developed postural hypotension. For the past months I've been adding decently large amounts of salt to my diet, and almost never have any postural hypotension anymore. I don't know if postural hypotension is considered a visceral condition, but thought I might mention it anyway.

I'd hate to add anything more really, seeing as my knowledge on all this is very limited. Frustrating, because I always used to ace biology class.
Feel free to continue discussion here though :)

Ghormeh: interesting.. Perhaps it's a dose-related thing. Did you experience anything else (anxiolysis)?

Also, this might be highly far-fetched, but perhaps with the growing research plausibly supporting supplements in their potential to mitigate HPPD symptoms.. Maybe with further research, a specialized stack/regimen could be conceived?

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Ahh thanks for linking that thread. And you needn't be anxious for anxiolysis I suppose! But I get the picture; no effects. I think there's like 5 different oral forms of Magnesium available.. I know, maybe it's nitpickery, but you never know right? It could maybe just make that subtle difference.

I wonder if 's initial succes remained sustainable?
What jay describes, is more or less my experience with Melatonin : visuals are still there, but they seem to be finer and not so "in your face".
I'll remember this as a potential adjunct for later down the road.

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Yeah on Longecity I remember different people had different responses to different types of magnesium. There was one that seemed to be head and shoulders above the rest, based on a number of studies and anecdotal reports, but I can't remember the name off the top of my head. In any case I never tried that form.

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I believe you're referring to Threonate? Could be wrong though. ScienceGuy's thread on Anxiety Treatment covers Mg as well.
Anyway here's a study portraying the anti-convulsant effects of Magnesium compared to Diazepam in Eclampsia.

 

For women with eclampsia, using magnesium sulphate rather than diazepam reduces the RR of maternal death by 41% (95% CI 8% to 62%) and of recurrence of seizures by 57% (95% CI 45% to 67%)

source

Anyway, seeing as Epsom Salts are €10 for 85 grams, I'll order some in a moment. If I order in the next 75 minutes, I'll have it by tomorrow.
Despite not having a bath, I do have a decently large tub like thing. I could take a footbath with some Epsom. I have a Ca-Mg-Zinc supplement, but it only contains 130mgs of Mg Oxide, and I've never taken more than 1 of those. If we take Jay's case as a rough estimate, 750mgs is required.
I'm gonna see what the comparable transdermal suggested dosages are.

Here's some more Mg info:
 

The improvement in post-traumatic depression/anxiety conferred by Mg adds further weight to available evidence of Mg’s benefit as a neuroprotective agent after TBI.

source

Malate seems to be the preferred oral form, and seems to work synergistically with transdermal Mg Sulphate. Instead of ordering online, I'll go check if the stuff is available at the Health Shop around the corner.

UPDATE: Ended up buying 1kg of Magnesium Sulphate, and 100grams of Magnesium Malate, for €26 online, free shipping. Pretty good deal.. Should be in by tomorrow, curious to whether the Epsom bath will have instant effects. In the meantime I'll study a little more into oral dosing safety and interactions.

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More Magnesium goodness:

 

These data seem to suggest the hypothesis that higher visual evoked potential amplitude and low brain magnesium level can both be an expression of neuronal hyperexcitability of the visual pathways related to a lowered threshold for migraine attacks.

source

 

Now I kind of forgot to do my homework on VEP's (read: no clue what they are, just know they are relevant). But reading from the EEG HPPD study, it says that HPPD was charactarized by shortened latency of the P2 component of the VEP. This seems paradoxical... Any comments? Maybe higher amplitude somehow means shortened latency? No clue personally.

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I do seem to remember having a slight improvement in mood and anxiety. Not sure why i stopped, don't think it was anything bad, just maybe price.

 

Need to start making a log of all my medication/supplement tests.

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Mg Citrate is the fastest in (and out) of the various forms of Mg

 

Amplitude and Velocity are not very related to each other.  Amplitude is affected by temperature ... and by nerve damage.  With MS, for example, damages axons can have weaker signals and if the person gets hot (exercise, hot bath, etc) then symptoms of the damage (not the autoimmune aspect) get worse because rise in temp reduces amplitude.  With damaged neurons, signals are weakened.

 

There are a few posts about temperature and visuals.  I posted a poll a while back ... it got a few replies.  In my case, visuals are gone when fever gets above 102 F - but that isn't a practical way to treat HPPD !  So, it could be evidence of axonal damage (which matches the chemical class responsible for my TE) or with increased temp, it reduces 'cerebral disinhibition' via reduced amplitude.

 

The role of Mg and amplitude is interesting.  Have you googled dopamine and magnesium together yet?  There are some articles about Mg <--> DA relationships

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jay: Well that's good! At least it wasn't due to adverse effects.

Visual: I haven't had a fever (let alone been sick) since I've come to acquire HPPD, so I wouldn't know the effects on me personally.
I know Mg and B6 are essential for DA synthesis, so that just strengthens the fact that it'll have benefits. Haven't found any particularly interesting studies on that, but I might do a more thorough search later. I only mentioned the VEP thing because it seemed highly significant.. Still don't know what to make of it though.
According to some studies, more than 70% of the population is Mg deficient:

  • “Dietary Magnesium and C-reactive Protein Levels,” Journal of the American College of Nutrition, Vol. 24, No. 3, 166-171 (2005).
  • Jaffe R MD. “How to Know if You are Magnesium Deficient: 75% of Americans Are” (transcript), 06/16/05, www.innovativehealing.com

Anyway, I just received the Mg supplements in the mail.
Ohh and regarding Citrate vs. Malate:

 

The MALATE form of MAGNESIUM is recommended and is distinctly preferred over the CITRATE form; this is due to the following facts:

1) the MALATE will enhance energy production and feeling of wellbeing via enhancement of KREBS CYCLE function. The typical diet is already overlaiden with too much CITRATE and hence MORE CITRATE will if anything only serve to further imbalance the KREBS CYCLE function.

2) The CITRATE form is significantly more LAXATIVE than the MALATE form, which in itself is a reason to avoid it. The dosage regimen that I have recommended for the MAGNESIUM MALATE, namely 1 gram upon waking, 1 gram in the afternoon and 4.25 grams at bedtime, should not cause you to become 'too loose' so to speak; however, in the unlikely event that it does then a simple dosage adjustment will rectify matters.



SOURCE

Now sadly he doesn't link much studies on Mg, but the guy is pretty darn good at what he does, so I trust it. I'm sure it's verifiable.

So... time to have a foot-bath! I don't know whether I should start oral dosing yet.. 6,25 grams seems to be preferable for that goal. However, considering the whole probably-will-be-getting-Keppra-soon thing, I'd rather wait to get Keppra, and then add Mg. I'll think about it a little. I'll make an update if anything significant happens.

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Well so far so good. Had a foot bath with 1/2 cup Mg to 10L water. Afterwards I ingested 1G of Mg Malate powder (containing 150mg Mg), a few hours later another gram. Anyway, I just went grocery shopping. For some reason I tend to get anxious in grocery stores since HPPD came along. I must say, I noticed a siginificant reduction in anxiety. Normally I'll twitch, which in turn makes me more anxious.. you get the point. This time only some slight sweating, and my speech was clearer. But hey, could be placebo. I'll continue Mg untill Monday, to better discern effects. Up to now, I can say I feel naturally more relaxed. Many other supplements I have tried usually come with a strange feel to it, but this just feels natural. Honestly I've been quite relaxed today. Anyway, after dinner (Mackerel for the PS and Omega's!) I'll take 3 grams of the stuff, and see what happens. The patterns on my wallpaper (which I tend to use as a HPPD-meter) are distinguishable today, but that has been so all day. Probably the wine I had yesterday contributed to that. Or not. Lately I've been so focused on seeing what substance has what effect, that I have forgotten that some things can also be of natural cause, or just by randomness.

I'll update tonight if anything significant happens. So far no laxative effects (hurrah).

EDIT: Well.. Alcohol just ruined all chances of giving an objective view of the effects of Magnesium. I guess I'll digress.

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Well so far so good. Had a foot bath with 1/2 cup Mg to 10L water. Afterwards I ingested 1G of Mg Malate powder (containing 150mg Mg), a few hours later another gram. Anyway, I just went grocery shopping. For some reason I tend to get anxious in grocery stores since HPPD came along. I must say, I noticed a siginificant reduction in anxiety. Normally I'll twitch, which in turn makes me more anxious.. you get the point. This time only some slight sweating, and my speech was clearer. But hey, could be placebo. I'll continue Mg untill Monday, to better discern effects. Up to now, I can say I feel naturally more relaxed. Many other supplements I have tried usually come with a strange feel to it, but this just feels natural. Honestly I've been quite relaxed today. Anyway, after dinner (Mackerel for the PS and Omega's!) I'll take 3 grams of the stuff, and see what happens. The patterns on my wallpaper (which I tend to use as a HPPD-meter) are distinguishable today, but that has been so all day. Probably the wine I had yesterday contributed to that. Or not. Lately I've been so focused on seeing what substance has what effect, that I have forgotten that some things can also be of natural cause, or just by randomness.

I'll update tonight if anything significant happens. So far no laxative effects (hurrah).

EDIT: Well.. Alcohol just ruined all chances of giving an objective view of the effects of Magnesium. I guess I'll digress.

 

Seriously rate you man! I'll respond to your points in some of the threads I started when I have some decent time to look through the homework you gave me. Keep it up.. (bad pun alert)... magggggnificent work.

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Just thought I would add this. I am trying my first 4.8g of Piracetam today and conjunctively was doing a bit of research on the old thing. Came across this which is of interest with regards to your topic.

On Piracetam...
 

The results, showed that the glutamate increase in the synapses; (released in controlled amounts); showed that people experienced a higher perception of colour and detail who had normal and slightly higher glutamate levels in the brain. The calcium ion channels (Caions) were responsible for the release of the glutamate neurotransmitter. The study showed that people with TOO MUCH Calcium in their neurons and post-synaptic space, experienced dulled/ normal perception of colour an detail; the same goes for the people who had TOO LITTLE Calcium in their brain. It is like the 'U' shaped curve with experienced with Piracetam dosage.

Piracetam controls the release of Ca+ ions and glutamates in the brain, like previous studies have concluded, a dosage of 4.8 grams secretes the right amount of glutamate in the brain and regulates the Calcium ion channels. However, it was noticed that people who previously took Piracetam for more than 3 weeks required less dosage amounts of Piracetam (between 1000mg and 2800mg; some people exhibited the same effects when they took 4800mg) as compared to the new consumers.

 

 

See: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/54394-piracetam-how-to-get-all-the-benefits-from-it/

I also only just discovered (somehow overlooked) that it is from that is a racetam like Keppra/Levitiracetam, which as has been iterated many times here as a successful HPPD treatment.

I have read a few anecdotal reports here of people not having any effect with Piracetam as an adjunct to treating HPPD. Give this a read; and the above linked writing, maybe you can find it more effective.

Anyway, I know most of you are leaps and bounds with regards to research and am pretty sure I haven't added anything you didn't know, but when reading the quote and myself using Piracetam at the same time I thought I should include it and contribute what I could!

I will report back on my usage of Piracetam and see if it helps at all.

Best,
S

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Syntheso! That pun made my day haha!
No worries, take your time with responding.

And holy cow! I totally overlooked that Calcium link with Piracetam! Thanks times a thousand, great find!
If I wasn't so hungover, I would have a more literate response to this. I'll definitely spend some time on this once I'm feeling better.
Again, awesome contribution!

Piracetam is very dose sensitive in its effects, so perhaps it just might work for you at that dose! Haven't tried it at that dose myself.

Thank you thank you thank you!

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Thank you Ghormeh for being concerned. However, any negative effects from Alcohol usually don't last any longer than 2 days with me.
Sometimes some symptoms get worse, but they subside to what they were after time.

Honestly I rarely drink, so from time to time I let myself have a beer (or 10 in this case).
I know it's not a good idea to drink alcohol with all these problems, yet sometimes you got to allow yourself a break.
Besides, I made the healthiest breakfast (and lunch) ever today, and took some Vitamin B complex, Magnesium, and Sulbutiamine among others, to minimize any damage done. And I had plenty of water in between drinks. Not trying to explain myself, just showing you that I do consider my health while doing these things, and do my best to preserve the last bit of cognition I have left. Perhaps the reason others report such detrimental effects of Alcohol, is because they lack "healthy" drinking habits?

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I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of other people's experiences. There are others on the forum, like you, who don't mind a bit of alcohol intake here and there because they feel that sometimes they need a break from this disorder. It is of course up to each individual to deal with this disorder whichever way is best for them. :)

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Syntheso! That pun made my day haha!

No worries, take your time with responding.

And holy cow! I totally overlooked that Calcium link with Piracetam! Thanks times a thousand, great find!

If I wasn't so hungover, I would have a more literate response to this. I'll definitely spend some time on this once I'm feeling better.

Again, awesome contribution!

Piracetam is very dose sensitive in its effects, so perhaps it just might work for you at that dose! Haven't tried it at that dose myself.

Thank you thank you thank you!

Ah glad I could contribute a lil something, since I've been getting so much value out of stuff you and others have written! And that you found that punny (even worse!)

Yeah it will take me quite a while to do all the homework you gave me across loads of threads. Skimmed it all but looking forward to digesting fully. Really enjoying (pseudo)getting into neuroscience.. but simultaneously attempting to compose shit loads of orchestral pieces which is taking up time. It all flows together nicely though.

Mate, with you- I definitely like to have a drink now and again. Doesn't seem to worsen HPPD too much to not be worth it for me. Besides, it is very difficult not to drink as a musician (when gigging.. and not I guess).. especially when sometimes/usually the fee is alcohol based :P

On Piracetam.. mentioned briefly in the other thread.. I had a solid day today despite my dog's slip up, which I wasn't expecting.. thought I would start going insane. Could just be the calm before the storm. But yeah.. today, 4.8g piracetam, 20mg magnesium, 1mg l-tyrosine, vit b complex, vit c, fish oil. All good... I will be continuing that as a trial for a while to see how sustainable it is. Everything except for the piracetam has been my daily constant for a while now with 'something else' being tested on top on different occasions. So I have a control and will inform you if anything worthwhile comes of that recommended dose of Piracetam in the long run (one of the threads on Longecity also suggests that if you don't feel positive effects it could take up to 3 weeks of dosing before you do).

Best,

S

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ondeday: When i dont forget to take it, magnesium only calms down a bit and clear my vision... the visuals are still present but i dont know exactly how to describe the improvement..  for example: Usually the moon looks like it was out of focus, a kind of "double moons". With magnesium (and a lot of vitamin C) that "double vision" improve a little.

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